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Who Occupies The Last Throne?

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Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  ChrisWAldridge on Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:04 pm

As we Hellenes well-know, we don't all agree on who sits on the last throne of Olympos. Some of us believe Dionysos, others believe it's still Hestia. But are both views equally valid within modern Hellenismos? And are there more ancient sources for one as opposed to the other?

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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  DavidMcCann on Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:21 pm

ChrisWAldridge wrote:Some of us believe Dionysos, others believe it's still Hestia.
And some of us don't take the myth all that seriously! Even in Antiquity, the sources are generally Attic/Ionic. I doubt that the people of Samothrace would regard the Olympians as all taking precedence over their Great Gods.

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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  spokane89 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:59 pm

The last what, what are you even talking about
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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  Erodius on Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:32 pm

ChrisWAldridge wrote:As we Hellenes well-know, we don't all agree on who sits on the last throne of Olympos. Some of us believe Dionysos, others believe it's still Hestia. But are both views equally valid within modern Hellenismos? And are there more ancient sources for one as opposed to the other?

As far as I'm aware, the idea of any 'replacement' is largely a 19th/20th century interpolation, and a misrepresentation/misunderstanding of Dionysus' accounts of ascent to the heavens, while Ἑστία always has her seat on earth.

In Orphism, Ἑστία is adamantly held as the twelfth, never Dionysus.

I doubt that the people of Samothrace would regard the Olympians as all taking precedence over their Great Gods.

One can only go from what is recorded, and what is recorded would indicate that the Samothracian cults were fully integrated with those of the rest of the Hellenistic world. The Samothracian Cabeiri would certainly have been of greatest importance to the local cult, but precedence and cosmic rank are not synonymous in Classical religion. Moreover, the Samothracian Great Gods were sometimes identified with the three Cronian brothers, of whom two live, and one 'dies', assigned the domain of the dead by lot.


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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  ChrisWAldridge on Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:05 pm

For all 6 years of my practice, I have revered Dionysos as the 12th Olympian, but of course, never neglecting the great importance of Hestia. Would you say that I have been practicing wrong?

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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  Erodius on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:05 pm

ChrisWAldridge wrote:For all 6 years of my practice, I have revered Dionysos as the 12th Olympian, but of course, never neglecting the great importance of Hestia. Would you say that I have been practicing wrong?

I don't imagine this would have much bearing on actual practice scratch this is a technical/cosmological issue, not a practical one.

As discussed on this forum before – whether or not a divinity is among the Olympian/Twelve Gods has very little relation to scope or proliferation of veneration.

The cultus of Bacchus would certainly be considerably more prominent than that of Hestía.

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  ChrisWAldridge on Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:44 pm

In his dialogues, Plato talks about Hestia and the "remaining 12 Gods." So I suppose there's historical evidence for Dionysos being the 12th and not Hestia, because Plato clearly talks about Hestia as being separate from the 12, assuming it's been translated accurately of course.

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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  DavidMcCann on Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:56 pm

ChrisWAldridge wrote:In his dialogues, Plato talks about Hestia and the "remaining 12 Gods." So I suppose there's historical evidence for Dionysos being the 12th and not Hestia, because Plato clearly talks about Hestia as being separate from the 12, assuming it's been translated accurately of course.
In Phaedrus 246e/247a, Socrates speaks of Zeus leading a procession of eleven bands, Hestia remaining in the house of the gods while the rest of the twelve rulers lead their companies. Do the eleven bands include that of Zeus or not? I doubt that Plato intended his myth to be read so closely!

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Re: Who Occupies The Last Throne?

Post  Thrasyvoulos on Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:56 am

ChrisWAldridge wrote:In his dialogues, Plato talks about Hestia and the "remaining 12 Gods." So I suppose there's historical evidence for Dionysos being the 12th and not Hestia, because Plato clearly talks about Hestia as being separate from the 12, assuming it's been translated accurately of course.

Simply because Plato may have held Hestia apart from the Olympians does not automatically mean Dionysos was included in the list of the Olympians. It just means Hestia may not have been counted among them. The lists of Olympians differs from region to region, city-state to city-state, particular cult to particular cult, and even individual to individual throughout Hellenic history. This particular bit of theology is minuscule in relation to the emphasis on devotion.

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