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Theia

Post  AgathonZante on Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:44 pm

I've been doing some research on the Titans, and one of the most popular seems to be Theia, but what I am wondering is whether or not Theia would be considered hostile toward Olympos. From my understanding, none of the female Titans fought against Zeus. Is this true? In what regards would Theia be relevant to our modern Hellenic practice?

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Re: Theia

Post  Human on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:37 pm

It's a bit of a complicated subject because despite mythology the Titans were generally still worshiped or at least honored, even Chronos.

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Re: Theia

Post  DavidMcCann on Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:24 pm

I'm not aware of any ancient cult of Theia, but there was certainly state worship of Kronos, Rhea, Thetis, Themis, Eurynome, Leto, and Prometheus. Evidently the Greeks didn't consider the myth of the titanomachy as a bar to worshiping the Titans. If you count their non-Olympian descendants as Titans, that includes Hekate and Helios, for example.

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Re: Theia

Post  AgathonZante on Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:32 pm

Of course, many of the Titans are still worshiped by us today. It was also said that Zeus eventually forgave Kronos and gave the Titan rule over Elysium. As far as the war is concerned, if I remember correctly, none of the female Titans fought for Kronos. And Prometheus and Epimetheus also did not. I have also not read anything which says Deities like Helios were hostile toward Zeus. However, I do seem to remember reading that some of the Titans became sworn enemies of Olympos.

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Re: Theia

Post  Human on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:42 pm

I don't know you have to keep in mind that there were many Gods mentioned in myth that weren't really worshiped too. I think the only being that could really be seen as an enemy was Typhon and Gaia actually did turn on Zeus at some point which is part of why she gave birth to Typhon. Generally it seems to me like Titans were sort of a Pantheistic representation of a deity where as Gods were actual Gods to the ancient Greeks in the way we understand the term.

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Re: Theia

Post  DavidMcCann on Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:01 pm

I think the stories of Olympians vs Titans is a reflection of the ancient Indo-European myth of competing sets of Gods: Æsir and Vanir, Devas and Asuras. Asking what that originally meant is a bit like asking what song the Sirens sang!

On the subject of Gaia, she had an official priest in Athens. It was one of those where you paid an annual fee and got your money back in sacrificial meat and, rather sadly, I think it was the cheapest one.

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Re: Theia

Post  Erodius on Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm

AgathonZante wrote:In what regards would Theia be relevant to our modern Hellenic practice?

A personification of the sunlight throughout the skies of the world.

Evidently the Greeks didn't consider the myth of the Titanomachy as a bar to worshiping the Titans.

Certainly not. Flawed and fickle, but not certainly not evil, and certainly worthy of veneration. In the Orphic religion, the whole array of mortal life throughout the world arose from the conspirator Titans, and, consequently, they possess a significant place in the elevation of the soul out of her grievous circle.

Asking what that originally meant is a bit like asking what song the Sirens sang!

With all due respect, the meaning and consequences of Titanomachy form rather a core element of the Orphic religion.  Wink

I don't know you have to keep in mind that there were many Gods mentioned in myth that weren't really worshiped too.

This is also an important point – the Titans of the Titanomachy usually consist only of the 'elder Titans' so to speak, and not of the various children born of them, of which various myths name a vast number of 'younger Titans' (often only mentioned by name, and who doubtfully ever had any sort of regular cult), as is the fact that the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy were not solidly codified myths. Many people largely considered them interchangeable, and though there is agreement on there having been a struggle between the children of Earth against the Gods, the names, numbers, and identities of these children of Earth, whether identified as Titanes or Gigantes, varies by account, especially the Gigantes; although delineations of the Titans are usually consistent for the most part, varying only slightly, those of the Gigantes not only vary hugely in number, but also in name, and most include as Gigantes figures normally listed as Titans.

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Re: Theia

Post  DavidMcCann on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:04 pm

Erodius wrote:With all due respect, the meaning and consequences of Titanomachy form rather a core element of the Orphic religion.  Wink
True! I was referring to the meaning of the original Indo-European myth. The Greek, Germanic, and Indo-Iranian interpretations are all incompatible, so at least two (perhaps all three) must have reinterpreted the myth to illustrate a different point, as people do. An example of that would be the the way in which the Attis story moved, over five hundred years, from a literary invention to a genuine part of Greek religion.

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Re: Theia

Post  De Li on Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:20 pm

DavidMcCann wrote: ... The Greek, Germanic, and Indo-Iranian interpretations are all incompatible, so at least two (perhaps all three) must have reinterpreted the myth to illustrate a different point, as people do. ...

If one is to accept the latter part of your above statement, (which I am inclined to do), it does however not necessarily follow that the former part of the statement is correct. It est illustrating different aspects does not render the underlying whole as necessarily different, yet alone 'incompatible'.

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Re: Theia

Post  De Li on Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:24 pm

Erodius wrote:
AgathonZante wrote:In what regards would Theia be relevant to our modern Hellenic practice?

A personification of the sunlight throughout the skies of the world.

...

This I find enlightening [pun not intended] in regards to comparison to Germanic religion. I used to have difficulties to place Sunna/Sol/Saule, and think I have just found her counterpart Wink thank you.
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Re: Theia

Post  Human on Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:16 pm

I would like to point out that the Asura and Deva were often conflicting in points that one represented Nature and the other represented people. It seems in (ancient) Hindu religion the nature Gods became more pure and holy than than the ones that represented human endeavors at some point unlike the Ancient Greek religion that seems to have an opposite belief of that.

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Re: Theia

Post  AgathonZante on Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:52 pm

In some ways, I see the Titans as natural forces without control, and the Gods are the ones who brought control and direction to the universe. That's why powerful Gods like Zeus carried epithets such as "Orderer." With that being said, I also believe that Gods and divine beings have the ability to change. In other words, just because one may have had ancient conflicts with another, does not mean they still hold that conflict today. An endless rivalry, to my mind, is something reserved only for human fallibility. The Gods are not petty. Even though it was said in ancient times that Gaia, for example, warred against Zeus, do I believe that war is still going on today? No, I don't. I think Gaia now exists in peace with the Gods, as they have moved past former disputes and moved toward a common good, assuming they even had those former disputes in the first place in anything other than myth. That's what I believe anyway.

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Re: Theia

Post  Human on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:19 am

I don't think there was a war ever. I think the myth of the Titanomachy was an allegory of the Gods bringing order to the cosmos. Of course I don't believe that most of the Titans are sentient beings either.

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Re: Theia

Post  Thrasyvoulos on Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:38 pm

Human wrote:I don't think there was a war ever. I think the myth of the Titanomachy was an allegory of the Gods bringing order to the cosmos. Of course I don't believe that most of the Titans are sentient beings either.

We Orphics must respectfully disagree. As Erodius said, it's a rather core element of our theology Razz

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Re: Theia

Post  Erodius on Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:39 pm

Well, about the sentience part. The restoring order part is agreed.

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"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
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Re: Theia

Post  Thrasyvoulos on Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:51 pm

Erodius wrote:Well, about the sentience part. The restoring order part is agreed.

Ach, I should have been more specific Laughing

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