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Rhea

Post  spokane89 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:19 am

Ok let's kick off the new site with some deep thinking and research. The Titaness Rhea is listed as Goddess of 'Flow' on theoi.com and this is a fascinating concept to me. This Flow is a wide ranging concept reaching from the Flow of Time and Generations as well as the much more literal Flow of Lactation and the Flow of Menstruation. This vague domain is an interesting one to me; how do all you take to this?
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Re: Rhea

Post  Achrelus on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:16 pm

I never actually took that into consideration, that is really ambiguous. I would say that if the domain is vague that it was meant to cover all things within that vagueness. If that isn't too vague a response Razz
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Re: Rhea

Post  Herakles on Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:50 pm

Did Rhea lend her support to her children, the very one's who Kronos swallowed, in the war against the Titans?

What became of her once the Olympians had established their sovereignty?

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Re: Rhea

Post  Erodius on Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:16 am

Herakles wrote:Did Rhea lend her support to her children, the very one's who Kronos swallowed, in the war against the Titans?

What became of her once the Olympians had established their sovereignty?

In Orphism, Gaia, Rhea, Hestia, Demetra and Hera are different stages of the divine principle Earth — what Dv. Pythagoras called Dyad. Gaia becomes Rhea in uniting with Kronos to bring forth the Gods, and assists the righteous cause by entrusting the new-come Zeus to the Cave of Night until the time came for Him to oust the Titans. By affirming the dictates of the flow of Necessity, Gaia becomes Rhea, which is why Rhea was often said, per the Phrygians (to whom She was known as Kybele, after a Phrygian mountain range), to be the daughter of Zeus and a mountain of stone (the Earth), because She arose from Earth because of bearing Zeus. Then, after bearing Zeus, she is called Demetra, who, following Zeus' universal apocatastasis, becomes Hera in union with the heavenly Zeus, Demetra in union with sublunar Zeus (Poseidon, whose name comes from the words 'πόσις' "husband" δα-ων "of the earth"), and Kore in union with terrestrial/chthonian Zeus (Plouton).

The Rhapsodiai say:
#145. Aforetime was she Rhea, but when She came to be called mother of Zeus, She became Demetra.

And the Derveni Commentaries, a set of Orphic theological exegeses, describe this:
So Orpheus named all things in the same way as finely as he could, knowing the nature of men, that not all of them have a similar nature nor do all want the same things. When they have the power, they say anything that occurs to each one’s heart, whatever they happen to want, never the same things, through greed, sometimes also through lack of understanding. Earth (Gē), Mother (Mētēr), Rhea and Hera are one and the same. She/it was called Earth by convention; Mother, because all things are born from Her (or: from this one). Gē and Gaia according to each one’s dialect. And She was called Demeter as the Mother Earth (Gē Mētēr), one name from the two; for it was the same.

I hope that is helpful.

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Re: Rhea

Post  Herakles on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:26 am

Actually your response left me even more confused then I was before. Hera and Demeter were sisters an daughters of Rhea. I am not sure which was the elder of the two but Kronos swallowed them both each in turn. If I am not mistaken Zeus had a union with Demeter before his marriage to Hera.
To me Demeter and Hera are two distinct and totally separate Goddesses. I think in this case Orphism got it all wrong.
Gaea united with Uranus who together bore the Titans. Kronos the youngest Titan who at the behest of Gaea slew Uranus then Kronos married his sister Rhea and they bore the Gods but because of a prophesy Kronos swallowed the first five but was tricked by Rhea into swallowing a stone in place of the newly born Zeus.
Rhea was born of Gaea and Demeter was born of Rhea as was Hera. Hera and Demeter were granddaughters of Gaea not aspects of Gaea or the Earth.
Then you or the Orphism are saying that Zeus, Hades and Poseidon are all aspects of One (Zeus) in his various guises. Which sounds very close to what the Wiccans believe of the God and Goddess.
All that I wanted to understand was on which side in the war against the Titans did Rhea stand with her children or with her husband Kronos and the other Titans; her brothers and sisters?

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Re: Rhea

Post  Erodius on Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:59 am

Herakles wrote:Actually your response left me even more confused then I was before. Hera and Demeter were sisters an daughters of Rhea. I am not sure which was the elder of the two but Kronos swallowed them both each in turn. If I am not mistaken Zeus had a union with Demeter before his marriage to Hera.
To me Demeter and Hera are two distinct and totally separate Goddesses. I think in this case Orphism got it all wrong.
Gaea united with Uranus who together bore the Titans. Kronos the youngest Titan who at the behest of Gaea slew Uranus then Kronos married his sister Rhea and they bore the Gods but because of a prophesy Kronos swallowed the first five but was tricked by Rhea into swallowing a stone in place of the newly born Zeus.
Rhea was born of Gaea and Demeter was born of Rhea as was Hera. Hera and Demeter were granddaughters of Gaea not aspects of Gaea or the Earth.
Then you or the Orphism are saying that Zeus, Hades and Poseidon are all aspects of One (Zeus) in his various guises. Which sounds very close to what the Wiccans believe of the God and Goddess.
All that I wanted to understand was on which side in the war against the Titans did Rhea stand with her children or with her husband Kronos and the other Titans; her brothers and sisters?

Hera and Demeter, as well as Hestia, are daughters of Rhea. They are distinct, but derive from the same source, and all arise from the same material. Three vessels holding water from one basin.

Earth united with Heaven, and bore the Titans. Kronos, at the behest of Gaia castrated Heaven (Heaven is not killed), and joins with Rhea to bear the Olympian Gods, but Kronos swallows the others as they are born, Rhea saving Zeus by giving Kronos a stone instead. The myth is the same.

Zeus, Poseidon and Plouton are also distinct, but derive from the same source. Poseidon, by the Greeks, was called Zeus Pelagaios (Marine Zeus), and Plouton was often, not merely by Orphics, called Zeus Khthonios (Chthonic Zeus).

Although their methodology and practice, I think, is sometimes nothing short of spiritual plagiarism, and their theology vastly oversimplified, the basic truth is, as Pherekydes, Pythagoras and Orphics from the 500s BCE up through the later philosophers, and even basic rational thought, demonstrate that there are two basic forms of being, one that has energy, and one that is inert, but can receive it. Orphics do not believe in 'a horned god' and 'the triple goddess' Razz Zeus, Poseidon and Plouton, as Hera, Demetra and Hestia, are, as we would say, sets of identical triplet siblings. They are technically the same, but, like such siblings, have nuances that make them ultimately distinct.

Then you or the Orphism are saying that Zeus, Hades and Poseidon are all aspects of One (Zeus) in his various guises. Which sounds very close to what the Wiccans believe of the God and Goddess.

We would say it is perhaps an idea that they snatched up, dumbed-down, and then misinterpreted into their own system. Wicca was invented in the twentieth century, we have certainty, through the Derveni Commentaries, that the Orphic tradition dates at least to the 4th century BCE, and must have been well-formulated already at that time.

The Platonic philosopher, and Orphic, Proklos Diadokhos, elaborates on this as follows:

"Olympian Jove (Zeus) is also the summit of the three, has the same name with the fontal Jove, is united to him, and is monadically called Jupiter. But the second is called dyadically, marine Jove, and Neptune (Poseidon). And the third is triadically denominated, terrestrial Jupiter, Pluto, and Hades. The first of these also preserves, fabricates, and vivifies summits, but the second, things of a second rank, and the third those of a third order. Hence this last is said to have ravished Proserpina (Persephone/Kore), that together with her he might animate the extremities of the universe."


~~~~~~~~~~~~

All that I wanted to understand was on which side in the war against the Titans did Rhea stand with her children or with her husband Kronos and the other Titans; her brothers and sisters?

With her children, obviously. She is the one who brought them back!


Last edited by Ερωδιός on Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:07 pm; edited 3 times in total

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Rhea

Post  Erodius on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:24 am

I think in this case Orphism got it all wrong.

I'm curious as to why you think this. You say they are brothers and sisters born of the same parents, we say they are brothers and sisters born of the same parents, but that they are like triplets — one ovum split into three.

We say that Rhea is both Earth and a daughter of Earth; the daughter is an evolution from the mother. She is begotten by Earth from the part of Earth that seeks to remedy the actions of the Titans, which she does by bearing Zeus; the wicked part of Earth is the one that gives birth to Typhon. This is why Pausanias says, as I mentioned, that Kybele is the daughter of Zeus and Earth — which is an outwardly perplexing statement, and why Rhea's Orphic Hymn says she is daughter of Protogonos, himself the Father of Heaven and Earth with the great goddess Night.

It would save a lot of Classical history and literature students an awful lot of trouble if all mythology followed Hesiod word for word (Hesiod himself is inconsistent with Homer on many points), but the truth is, mythology is much more fluid than that, and is full of evident inconsistencies that one can either ignore and reject as 'false' or seek to reconcile and view in a way that they are consistent.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Rhea

Post  Linda on Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:17 pm

Ερωδιός wrote: They are distinct, but derive from the same source, and all arise from the same material.
To me that's crystal clear. It's just like every living thing on earth derive from the very same basic cellular compound which was the first life back billions of years ago and that we all arise from the DNA. That make us distinct and different still with the same origin.

To me it's basically the same with the gods. They emitted from the same basic divine substance but they became different individuals out of nessecity. And to me that 'basic substance' is more than just a physical matter, it's a set of ideas as well.

And as that physical matter and set of idea evolved, it split in more or less similar parts to form a stronger foundation to uphold the universe, just like we add several beams to lift a roof. And they split unevenly to avoid the risk with too similar clones. Thus the gods became different individuals and not just parts of the same being/collective mind. They had and still have different ideas and mind and are not always pulling in the same direction. They interacted with each other and spawned new set of ideas and forces ("children") as they and the world became formed. That's why IMHO the Gods are several and that's why I'm a polytheist.

And perhaps we do have a bit hard to always tell them apart as well. After all they are not easy-to-understand actors on a stage. They are quite different from us litle ones down here on the revolving orb at the outskirts of the Milky Way.
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