Olympianismos
Welcome to Olympianismos!

Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Out of Phlegethon on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Palestinian fisherman Joudat Ghrab tells a different tale. The 26-year-old father of two said he saw a human-like shape lying in shallow waters some 100 metres offshore, just north of the Egyptian-Gaza border.

At first he thought it was a badly burnt body, but when he dived down to take a closer look he realised it was a statue. He says it took him and his relatives four hours to drag the treasure ashore.

"I felt it was something gifted to me by God," Ghrab told Reuters. "My financial situation is very difficult and I am waiting for my reward."

His mother was less happy when she saw the naked Apollo carried into the house, demanding that his private parts be covered. "My mother said: 'What a disaster you have brought with you' as she looked at the huge statue," said Ghrab.

The discoloured green-brown figure shows the youthful, athletic god standing upright on two, muscular legs; he has one arm outstretched, with the palm of his hand held up.

He has compact, curly hair, and gazes out seriously at the world, one of his eyes apparently inlaid with a blue stone iris, the other just a vacant black slit.

Ghrab says he cut off one of the fingers to take to a metals expert, thinking it might have been made of gold. Unbeknownst to him, one of his brothers severed another finger for his own checks. This was melted down by a jeweller.

Yes, cut off the finger, naturally.  Like the old hag burning the pages of Nag Hammadi to heat the stove.  Or the Egyptian I met who broke pieces off the pyramids to bring back to his friends.  You can conjure up as many Edward Said pseudo-arguments as you want; these people are utterly worthless in my eyes.
avatar
Out of Phlegethon
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 114
Join date : 2013-06-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

PULLED OFF TWO FINGERS?!?!

Post  ταιλερ ο πιστός on Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:26 pm

some people just want to watch the world burn -_-.
i know if i found something like that i wouldn't let anyone near it!

_________________
 [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] If you win, you live.
If you lose, you die.
If you don't fight, you can't win.

ταιλερ ο πιστός
Newbie
Newbie

Posts : 7
Join date : 2013-09-03
Age : 19
Location : uk

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Out of Phlegethon on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:00 pm

Indeed, some do.

Also, I apologize to the forum for venting my spleen against all Muslims when in fact this was a bad representation brought on by unconquered anger. Which is after all the spark that taints the soul and leads to such conflagrations that will actually one day burn the world.
avatar
Out of Phlegethon
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 114
Join date : 2013-06-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Daedalus on Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:32 am

I hate people who desecrate ancient and sacred things. Evil or Very Mad 

_________________
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
avatar
Daedalus
Junior Member
Junior Member

Posts : 33
Join date : 2013-11-16
Age : 16
Location : New Mexico

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Linda on Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:00 pm

Why can't just people respect what others find holy. Live and let live... and everybody would be much happier.

Then again, I'm well aware of the fact that it's often the various Abrahamite groups who start the quarrel. Other groups are more like 'your gods are peculiar' and then they leave it there. I suspect it's a monotheistic trait to have a hard time accepting other people's gods, as if they feal threathened by the fact that there are more gods out there than the one they are wholeheartedly following.
avatar
Linda
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 101
Join date : 2013-04-17
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Erodius on Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:45 pm

Why can't just people respect what others find holy. Live and let live... and everybody would be much happier.

Well, if 'ifs' and 'buts' . . .

The short answer is that looking on conflicts that way is a bit simplistic. By this I mean that individual's stances on certain things are not a matter of supporting versus not-supporting. There is also active opposition to things.

I'll use musical taste as an example. Say there is a party, and those organizing the party have decided to play rap music. There will be those who want to listen to rap music, those who would have chosen something else, but don't mind rap music, and also those who actively dislike rap music and do mind.

Especially in religious matters, it is almost never so basic as X-group does A, Y-group does B instead. Often it is a matter of 'X' not simply 'not-doing' B, but actively opposing it, and vice versa.

It's rarely so simple as 'We do this, but you don't. The end.'

Then again, I'm well aware of the fact that it's often the various Abrahamite groups who start the quarrel. Other groups are more like 'your gods are peculiar' and then they leave it there. I suspect it's a monotheistic trait to have a hard time accepting other people's gods, as if they feal threathened by the fact that there are more gods out there than the one they are wholeheartedly following.

The difference is that most (if not, perhaps, all — I can't think of any exceptions) non-Abrahamic religions, even those that are, essentially, monotheistic (yes, I mean monotheistic), conceive of a sort of hierarchical/tiered divinity, in which there exist various 'levels' and 'types' of divine manifestations. This makes it possible to afford a measure of toleration to external cults, because these religions can conceptualize and justify them by considering them some sort of lesser, though still genuine, entities.

Although some forms of folk Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have a small measure of this with their allowance for local saint cults, (for which, alongside the 'Trinity' thing, Christianity routinely is criticized by Judaism and Islam as being polytheistic, for introducing personae and pluralities to God), Judaism and, especially Islam, prohibit almost any sort of multiplicity at all in conceiving of God, and Islam, furthermore, has always had, since its beginnings, a sort of in-born 'warrior mentality' that allows only either submission or death on the part of its enemies. Islam does not tolerate opposition to itself, demanding its followers to wage war against all who oppose them until they either die, overcome their opponents, or kill them. Truces are not technically allowed, and willful non-conversion to Islam is considered, in and of itself, an offense to Islam itself.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The Orphic Way: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 928
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Out of Phlegethon on Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:35 pm

Yes, these two Abrahamic monotheisms that you've listed, Erodius-- (how goes it! by the way...)-- are often insanely, frequently violently, exclusivist.  However, each has a healthy side with an esoterism that does not necessarily get tarred by the same brush as the sword-swinging exoteric dimension.  Judaism for example has always had a very rich mysticism surrounding the angels and the prophets.  And in Sufism, a great deal of pre-Islamic angelic beings were able to survive, particularly in Iran, to this day.  Though it goes without saying that the accuse of "shirk" and persecution against-- and even by-- Sufis is frequent.
avatar
Out of Phlegethon
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 114
Join date : 2013-06-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Erodius on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:00 pm

(how goes it! by the way...)

Eh, sunt lacrimae rerum, but I am well, overall.


However, each has a healthy side with an esoterism that does not necessarily get tarred by the same brush as the sword-swinging exoteric dimension. Judaism for example has always had a very rich mysticism surrounding the angels and the prophets. And in Sufism, a great deal of pre-Islamic angelic beings were able to survive, particularly in Iran, to this day. Though it goes without saying that the accuse of "shirk" and persecution against-- and even by-- Sufis is frequent.

Of course, that goes without saying. The disciples of Orpheus share more, ideologically speaking, probably with those of rabbi Luria or sheikh Mevlana, and vice versa, than with or among the exoteric strands of the respective three religions.

Esoteric movements are almost always, as far as I have studied, subject to varying levels of accusations of apostasy and general 'fringeyness' by the exoteric lines of their frame religions.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The Orphic Way: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 928
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Linda on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:58 am

Erodius wrote:[Although some forms of folk Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have a small measure of this with their allowance for local saint cults, (for which, alongside the 'Trinity' thing, Christianity routinely is criticized by Judaism and Islam as being polytheistic, for introducing personae and pluralities to God), Judaism and, especially Islam, prohibit almost any sort of multiplicity at all in conceiving of God, and Islam, furthermore, has always had, since its beginnings, a sort of in-born 'warrior mentality' that allows only either submission or death on the part of its enemies. Islam does not tolerate opposition to itself, demanding its followers to wage war against all who oppose them until they either die, overcome their opponents, or kill them. Truces are not technically allowed, and willful non-conversion to Islam is considered, in and of itself, an offense to Islam itself.

I know that we are made of different 'soul matter' which makes us gravitate towards different taste in music, food, interior decoration et cetera. We have different political standpoints and different religious views. But I wish, I WISH that humanity can mature into a kind of tolerance and respect for the others even when it comes to religious faith, accept that we are different even in what we find we gravitate towards religiously. It would never occur to me for instance to insult someone else's belief because I don't share it. I found these insultive cartoons and artworks of the prophet Mohammed the other year mean and cruel and childish. And then to drag in 'freedom of speech' in the discusion made it even more petty.

But I cannot for my life regard my faith in another set of Gods as being offensive to someone regardless of religion. That religious point of view is not exactly healthy and I believe that person ought to take a step outside themself and even their religion and regard it from the outside, see how destructive it has become and how much it hurts not just that person but even its surroundings. Because unfortunately some people become so much caught up in their faith that it becomes unhealthy and destructive, like an addiction. And then they need a wake-up call!

Because, when push comes to show, there are so many religions and sub-cults in this world that we are ALL in the minority. And the only way to deal with that is tolerance and acceptance. Then on another hand we can always have infuriating but healthy debates about the religious this and thats when it comes to creation and number of deities and moral standards and proper celebration and so on...
avatar
Linda
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 101
Join date : 2013-04-17
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Erodius on Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:07 pm

But I cannot for my life regard my faith in another set of Gods as being offensive to someone regardless of religion. That religious point of view is not exactly healthy and I believe that person ought to take a step outside themself and even their religion and regard it from the outside, see how destructive it has become and how much it hurts not just that person but even its surroundings. Because unfortunately some people become so much caught up in their faith that it becomes unhealthy and destructive, like an addiction. And then they need a wake-up call!

Whether you would regard it or not, your belief in/disbelief in XYZ is almost certainly offensive to somebody, regardless of what that belief is. That is the simple truth. As nice as it would be to not have anyone find you offensive, that isn't the way of the world. 'Political correctness' shows us that. We have taken PC-ness so far, that it has become unacceptable to stand too strongly in favor of, or against almost anything. In order not to offend anyone, you have to also not really believe anything, and not stand for anything, and certainly not really ever say or do anything. Truthfully, your belief in any divinity at all is offensive to a fair number of people!  Wink  It is simply unrealistic to expect to not be offensive to somebody.

That religious point of view is not exactly healthy and I believe that person ought to take a step outside themself and even their religion and regard it from the outside, see how destructive it has become and how much it hurts not just that person but even its surroundings.

Perhaps in your convictions of right and wrong, that sort of point of view is unhealthy. But I would ask you, likewise, to try to understand that, for that other person, your religious point of view is unhealthy, and would believe that your religion is destructive and harmful. Obviously, its very difficult to conceive of things this way — it's almost impossible to conceptualize another person's conceiving of something in a way totally opposite to one's own, and that this other person believes equally as strongly in his/her stance as you do in yours.

Because unfortunately some people become so much caught up in their faith that it becomes unhealthy and destructive, like an addiction. And then they need a wake-up call!

Some people would hold the complete opposite view — that there is nothing greater or nobler than to devote oneself totally and completely, in heart and mind, to one's faith. They'd say the same thing about you as you do about them.

I am not arguing for or against either side in any of these points, but what I am intending, is to get all involved to consider that, when there is a disagreement, it is not always simply that the disagreeing parties simply disagree on the 'answer', but agree on the parameters, situation, and the question. Disagreement can run much, much deeper than that. All disagreement are somehow tied to conceptions of good/bad and what is right versus what is wrong, and, as far as I have experienced and would argue, we, as human beings, do not agree on these basic parameters, and we get ourselves into a whole lot of trouble and misunderstanding when we assume that we do.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The Orphic Way: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 928
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Linda on Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:49 pm

Erodius wrote:
But I cannot for my life regard my faith in another set of Gods as being offensive to someone regardless of religion. That religious point of view is not exactly healthy and I believe that person ought to take a step outside themself and even their religion and regard it from the outside, see how destructive it has become and how much it hurts not just that person but even its surroundings. Because unfortunately some people become so much caught up in their faith that it becomes unhealthy and destructive, like an addiction. And then they need a wake-up call!

Whether you would regard it or not, your belief in/disbelief in XYZ is almost certainly offensive to somebody, regardless of what that belief is. That is the simple truth. As nice as it would be to not have anyone find you offensive, that isn't the way of the world. 'Political correctness' shows us that. We have taken PC-ness so far, that it has become unacceptable to stand too strongly in favor of, or against almost anything. In order not to offend anyone, you have to also not really believe anything, and not stand for anything, and certainly not really ever say or do anything. Truthfully, your belief in any divinity at all is offensive to a fair number of people!  Wink  It is simply unrealistic to expect to not be offensive to somebody.

That religious point of view is not exactly healthy and I believe that person ought to take a step outside themself and even their religion and regard it from the outside, see how destructive it has become and how much it hurts not just that person but even its surroundings.

Perhaps in your convictions of right and wrong, that sort of point of view is unhealthy. But I would ask you, likewise, to try to understand that, for that other person, your religious point of view is unhealthy, and would believe that your religion is destructive and harmful. Obviously, its very difficult to conceive of things this way — it's almost impossible to conceptualize another person's conceiving of something in a way totally opposite to one's own, and that this other person believes equally as strongly in his/her stance as you do in yours.

Well, I've never been a nihilist when it comes to standards of human interaction and behaviour, and I will claim that it is wrong to use religion (or political ideologies or ethnic boundaries et cetera) as a mean or a tool towards destruction. To chose an extreme, someone may always claim that it's right what the nazis did and what's happening in Northern Korea, but luckily that does not make it more right in the eyes of the majority. And absolutely the same thing is going on on smaller scales around the world and quite often religion is used as an 'excuse' to commit all kinds of atrocities, everything from mutilation of bodies, destruction of properties and group suicides to simply deny people the right to attend school or accept certain jobs. I will never excuse this regardless if the perpetrators are hiding behind religious dogmas or anything else. Because that's when I insist that religion has become a malignancy and ought to be put a stop to just as the nazis and likewise ideologies were put a stop to. And that's also why I suggest vigilance against people who get so caught up in their religion that they lose contact with what should be (in lack of a better English word) 'healthy values'.

When right or wrong becomes a matter of 'opinion' in these cases, we're walking down a dangerous path. Because there's a canyon of a difference between being upset by the number or names of deities and being upset by crimes performed in the name of religion. I fully know that we humans cannot agree on everything but it's not the same thing to agree with someone as to allow that person to have their opinion about or belief in things.
avatar
Linda
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 101
Join date : 2013-04-17
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Erodius on Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:06 pm

Because that's when I insist that religion has become a malignancy and ought to be put a stop to just as the nazis and likewise ideologies were put a stop to. And that's also why I suggest vigilance against people who get so caught up in their religion that they lose contact with what should be (in lack of a better English word) 'healthy values'.

But what I'm saying is that what constitutes 'healthy values' are not universally agreed and, regardless of whether this ought to be so, what different people consider healthy values is very much subjective. For an enormous number of people throughout the world, as an example, healthy values and religious values are inseparable from one another. You, or I, or anyone might consider there to exist a sort of objective value system agreed upon by all humanity independent of religion or culture, but truthfully, I would deny that any such thing exists, as glorious as such a thing might be.

Again, I am not saying either stance is right or wrong, but try to look at what you're saying impartially: 'vigilance against people who have lost contact with healthy values because of their religion' is exactly the same sort of language the people against whom you are advising vigilance would use against you. Can you imagine those same words directed against you? How do you think you'd react? What would you think about the person saying that against you? Do you think somebody else, who holds his/her radically different values every bit as strongly as you do, is going to be any less upset or insulted than you are? Personally, I don't.

Because there's a canyon of a difference between being upset by the number or names of deities and being upset by crimes performed in the name of religion.

Honestly, I don't think there is that much of a difference, not on an objective level. I say this from an academic standpoint in the study of various world religions, Islam included. As impossible as it may be for one to understand outside of that particular worldview, for devout Salafi Muslims, for instance, the fact that you address God by multiple names, a noble thing to you, is a horrendous and deplorable crime against God and all the cosmos, and a crime that, were you living in a Salafist Muslim society, would be punishable by death. I imagine you, on the other hand, would find death by stoning for adultery to be a horrendous and deplorable crime against God and all the cosmos, whereas, for the devout Salafi, it is a noble and divinely-enjoined act.

I hardly would say there is never a time to pass judgment. There are times for tolerance and restraint, and their are times for decision making and conclusions. A certain amount of tolerance and restraint is a good thing. However, overemphasized, it becomes a self-defeating paradox. It is a very easy thing to be tolerant of those who are tolerant of you, but it is not so pleasant to be tolerant when one has to also tolerate those who do not tolerate you.

As I've said, I would be the first to argue that there are times to let go of one's hyper-tolerance and stand for something, and this will certainly get you enemies — nobody is without them, after all. However, when we do this, I argue that we have to be honest with ourselves about it. We like to live in our little happy rainbow world where we are a force of pure good, even when we are in opposition to another. We like to think we are tolerant even when we are arguing against and/or condemning another person or group's ideas or actions. Why? Because tolerance, for most people, does not really mean tolerance. It means tolerance of 'certain types' of people. Usually only those sorts of people who are kind and civil to us, and do not directly or overtly oppose us.

When one stands for something, and against something else, one is a persecutor. Persecution is not only physical attacks or horrifying killings. When anyone pushes for the suppression or 'diligence against', as Linda phrased it, of a people, a group, an act, an idea, or a belief (one does not have to be advocating extermination, violence, or mass murder), one is a persecutor. Once again, I would argue that, contrary to what I imagine would be kneejerk shock and disbelief response for many people, sometimes it is justified to persecute. And I say that we do this anyway, all the time, just about all of us, without even recognizing that we are doing it, because we all like to think we are so tolerant. There are things that ought not to be tolerated (though again, I would point out the fact that what constitutes 'intolerable' is not at all universally agreed on), and there are things that ought to be suppressed. But, while doing so may be just in certain cases, at the same time, I think one has an obligation to mindfulness and an objective realization of what one is doing, untainted by one's position. That is, that even if you are in the right (or you think you are) and you are advocating against a person, group, act or idea, the mental and emotional experience of the said person, group, act or idea on the other end of your advocating will not much differ from your own were the situation inverted. The feelings of slightedness, fight-or-flight response, indignation, and unjust suffering are the same.

I do not subscribe to the doctrines of the infamous Protagoras of Abdera as being ultimately true — on the contrary, I think they are ridiculous and dangerous. However, I think, in order to have any hope of coming to grips with the way the world and human beings function, one has to put on the Protagorean goggles.
—————
As a postscript:

There is, of course, a line of thinking where 'tolerance' is specifically delineated as 'not causing or threatening any physical harm, violence or death'. I think there is some potential for this to be an achievable reality. However, with all due respect to Islam, unless several billion Muslims are interested in changing the Quran itself, which I doubt, the scriptural core of Islam does not exactly approve of living in a civil truce with one's enemies.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The Orphic Way: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 928
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Out of Phlegethon on Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:18 pm

I am afraid I have to agree with Erodius here. When we look on the world from our Western lens-- particularly when we look upon it with individualist, humanist sentiments-- we contort it to fit our values. And Western values are not universal, nor should they be. I like a world where difference still exists in geographically distinct places, and if you want a world sculpted to your own values, that is not difference, but a secret desire for homogeneity. As to people from other parts of the world coming to mine and trying to bring their juridical and theo-political ideology, that's a different matter. Then I identify with the necessity of the ought in a rather politically incorrect manner, and would like to defend the values Linda put forth.

avatar
Out of Phlegethon
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 114
Join date : 2013-06-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Linda on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:01 pm

Erodius wrote:
Because there's a canyon of a difference between being upset by the number or names of deities and being upset by crimes performed in the name of religion.

Honestly, I don't think there is that much of a difference, not on an objective level. I say this from an academic standpoint in the study of various world religions, Islam included. As impossible as it may be for one to understand outside of that particular worldview, for devout Salafi Muslims, for instance, the fact that you address God by multiple names, a noble thing to you, is a horrendous and deplorable crime against God and all the cosmos, and a crime that, were you living in a Salafist Muslim society, would be punishable by death. I imagine you, on the other hand, would find death by stoning for adultery to be a horrendous and deplorable crime against God and all the cosmos, whereas, for the devout Salafi, it is a noble and divinely-enjoined act.
.

Well I am not ready to be 'objective' here. Objective or in another word nihilistic.

I'm not prepared to put every expression of faith under one roof, I insist that there has to be some minor common demoniator for what is acceptable and what is not when it comes to religious or other ideological features. And IMO that limit should be drawn when it comes to endanger other people's health and security. The exact limit is of course hard to draw, what about verbal infrigments - which might indeed hurt as well? But the UN Declaration of Human Rights might serve as a heuristic guide. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The Salafists is exactly part the problem I'm reffering to, the problem when religion has gone too far off the tangent of what should be an acceptable deviation and become a hazard.

I'm not sure what the remedy could be at the moment. It's almost impossible to quarantine ideologies, much harder than for instance containing viral malignancies and no shots to be administred by the local doc.

There are loudmouthed and influential people out there demanding that warning stickers should be put on for instance religious litterature, I'm not part of them, but at the same time I believe that we might come a long way with general education.

To teach young people how to give and take respect and to to promote critical, free thought. And also warn about the risks and features are with totalitarian and menacing ideologies and how easy it is to fall in the baited traps they set up. And without mentioning any by name mind you, because while people are busy talking about Nazis, Communists or Salafists the next menace out there have most probably mutated and has a new name, a new set of dogmas and a new way to trap the unassuming innocents.
avatar
Linda
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 101
Join date : 2013-04-17
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Apollyon on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:31 pm

When I first saw this story, I will admit, I almost cried.
Something so ancient, noble, and beautiful....and it is delegated to nothing more than a potential paycheck, and of course held as shameful because of its 'nudity'.

Did I over look where it is now?
avatar
Apollyon
Junior Member
Junior Member

Posts : 40
Join date : 2013-03-24
Age : 32
Location : Indiana

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Erodius on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:41 pm

I'm not sure what the remedy could be at the moment. It's almost impossible to quarantine ideologies, much harder than for instance containing viral malignancies and no shots to be administred by the local doc.

That's exactly part of my point. It's all well and good to advocate a goal, but what is there in it without a tenable plan of action?

The Salafists is exactly part the problem I'm reffering to, the problem when religion has gone too far off the tangent of what should be an acceptable deviation and become a hazard.

Of course, the Salafis are considered rather extreme even among Muslim groups, and I am no proponent of Salafism. However, perhaps because I'm innately quite skeptical, and always believe in the necessity of a 'devil's advocate', and try to simultaneously understand antitheticalities, I have difficulty accepting any objective truth that makes your argument any more or less true than the Salafis'. Especially when the mutual rhetoric is essentially identical, but merely inverted, and no hand from Heaven or divine aid has manifestly indicated its support for either side. Both sides have their victories, and both, their defeats, and neither seems to hold the upper ground for long.

To teach young people how to give and take respect and to to promote critical, free thought. And also warn about the risks and features are with totalitarian and menacing ideologies and how easy it is to fall in the baited traps they set up. And without mentioning any by name mind you, because while people are busy talking about Nazis, Communists or Salafists the next menace out there have most probably mutated and has a new name, a new set of dogmas and a new way to trap the unassuming innocents.

Certainly, I think there is a tremendous lack of intellectual energy and critical thinking. And I think 'secularists' are, in many cases, every bit as guilty of intellectual sloth as the religious. Certainly, people need to be taught the risks and benefits of different systems. All of them. Otherwise, it is not critical thinking, but just a masquerade thereof. When one teaches the ills and pitfalls in authoritarian, communist, and anarchist systems, one must also teach the ills and pitfalls of 'infallible' democracy, and humanism, and liberalism, and every other system under the sun. Critical thinking must be objective. If we do not want objectivity, then we do not really want critical thinking at all.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The Orphic Way: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 928
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  A. Paterculus on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:22 pm

On the topic of Palestinian fisherman who discovered the ancient statue, there are [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about the discovery, so it isn't certain exactly what happened to the statue's fingers or even the identity of the discoverer. As described by the article Out of Phlegethon provided (and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) that he and his immediate family is dependent on a relatively small income from fishing and at least a day's work was lost as a result of uncovering the statue. Under such circumstances, it seems less than fair to blame him for caring less about the statue's artistic/historical/religious value than about the reward for finding it. The non-monetary value of such a find is difficult enough for laypeople to appreciate even if they are not preoccupied by day-to-day subsistence.

A. Paterculus
Newbie
Newbie

Posts : 6
Join date : 2013-05-21
Age : 27
Location : Connecticut

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Out of Phlegethon on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:46 pm

A. Paterculus wrote:On the topic of Palestinian fisherman who discovered the ancient statue, there are [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about the discovery, so it isn't certain exactly what happened to the statue's fingers or even the identity of the discoverer. As described by the article Out of Phlegethon provided (and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) that he and his immediate family is dependent on a relatively small income from fishing and at least a day's work was lost as a result of uncovering the statue. Under such circumstances, it seems less than fair to blame him for caring less about the statue's artistic/historical/religious value than about the reward for finding it. The non-monetary value of such a find is difficult enough for laypeople to appreciate even if they are not preoccupied by day-to-day subsistence.

Thank you for that little postmodern tableau of narratives. I will wait for objectivity and confirmation to accumulate so as not to get lost in a Borgesian maze thread of possible scenarios.

If our one story is true (with the butler in the library with the candlestick, rather than the other variations), then regardless of class status, I must still express my distaste at the handling of the situation.
avatar
Out of Phlegethon
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 114
Join date : 2013-06-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Linda on Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:05 pm

Erodius wrote:[ Certainly, people need to be taught the risks and benefits of different systems. All of them. Otherwise, it is not critical thinking, but just a masquerade thereof. .
Yes, IMO critical thinking should be all encompassing, regardless of dealing with religions, politics or for that matter the "Absolutely awesome old ride" the dude in the used cars shop is trying to offer you. As its best it can work like a kind of immune defence against all those hypocrites out there who are trying to set you up. And the more people out there who can question stupid deals, the harder will those charlatans get. Hopefully we reach a critical mass when enough people say "Thanks but not thanks" to the nest Salafist movement, and their advocates might have to get a life and a regular job instead... Hopefully....
avatar
Linda
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 101
Join date : 2013-04-17
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bronze Statue of Apollo Found

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum