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Dimitra & Estia

Post  Herakles on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:52 pm

Was it an oversight leaving out the God Hades, the Goddess Demeter as well as the Goddess Hestia? Then I see no mention of the God Dionysus, who came into his own on Olympus when the Goddess Hestia gave up her seat on Olympus and retired.

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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Erodius on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:27 pm

I think the creator of this forum is still working on it.

However, Demeter and Hestia are elements of the Dodekatheon, and should appear in the list if that is the field of reference.

Dionysos is considered an Olympian god in that Dionysos is an extension of Zeus ('Dionysos' means 'Zeus of Nysa', the traditional place where Dionysos was nurtured by the Nysiad nymphs), but is not a part of the Dodekatheon balance of six gods and six goddesses.

The story of Hestia's having stepped down is a fictional invention (my investigation traces it to Rick Riordan Rolling Eyes ) to explain the simultaneous depiction of the Olympian host at different places in Athens with either Hestia or Dionysos. However, there is no such myth, and the depiction of Dionysos in Hestia's place is more likely a reference to the popularity of Dionysian cult at Athens as well as the near absence of popular mythology regarding Hestia.

In popular religion, as well as especially in Orphism, Plouton is Zeus-Khthonios, the terrestrial aspect of Zeus. Both Plouton and Dionysos are certainly Olympian in a certain sense, but are not part of the 6-6 Dodekatheon.


Last edited by Ερωδιός on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

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-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
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Re: Left out

Post  Achrelus on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:32 pm

Ερωδιος is correct, it was not an oversight, I simpley have not got around to it yet lol! I have been editing other aspects of the forum as well as being in school and so I haven't added all of the dodekatheon yet. I figured I would add these posts in slower because many of the members on now are coming from Hellenismos.us and know at least the major gods and goddesses. No worries Very Happy

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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Linda on Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:58 pm

Ερωδιός wrote:The story of Hestia's having stepped down is a fictional invention (my investigation traces it to Rick Riordan Rolling Eyes )
I've heard it earlier than the Rick Riordan stories, I'd suspect that story was made up already back in the ancient days, by followers of Dionysos most probably. And why Hestia? Hard to know, probably because she was always the one in the background, never someone to run around on the battlefields, destroy things or rage over lost children and similar things. Then again, I can really imagine what happens if Hestia gets mad for real. Better call 911!
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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Erodius on Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:15 pm

My research traces it to stemming from an interpolation of a certain relief from Athens of a council of gods in which the twelfth is Dionysos. However, there is no myth of Estia having stepped down from any classical source. Rather, the fact that Estia's abode was in every hearth rather than heaven specifically is the more likely reason for this.

Dionysos rose us to rejoin his Olympian progenitor, and so may be said to be on Olympos, however, Estia remains the actual twelfth.

Especially in Orphic theology, there is a reason why it is insisted that the twelfth is Estia, not Dionysos.

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Callisto on Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:31 pm

Elani at Baring the Aegis wrote a post on this very subject just last month. She attributes it to being a fabrication by Robert Graves:

the source is Robert Graves' 'The Greek Myths', written in 1955. From that book (27.12):

"Finally, having established his worship throughout the world, Dionysus ascended into Heaven, and now sits at the right hand of Zeus as one of the Twelve Great Gods. The self-effacing goddess Hestia resigned her seat at the high table in his favour; glad of any excuse to escape the jealous wranglings of her family, and knowing that she could always count on a quiet welcome in any Greek city which it might please her to visit."

Graves provides two sources for this story: Apollodoros’ Bibliotheka 3.5.3, and and Pausanias’ Hellados Periegesis 2.31.2. As you can read for yourself, there is no mention what so ever of Hestia giving up Her throne...

Read full post: Baring the Aegis, Hestia versus Dionysos

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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Worshipper of Eros on Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:04 pm

The story of Hestia's having stepped down is a fictional invention...

Why then, do we offer first to Hestia? I was under the impression it was some sort of compensation or thanks for her sacrifice.
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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Erodius on Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:33 pm

Worshipper of Eros wrote:Why then, do we offer first to Hestia? I was under the impression it was some sort of compensation or thanks for her sacrifice.

Because Estia is the "seat of Gods and mortal men", and the foundation on which all piety rests.

In the Homeric tradition, Estia is worshipped both at the beginning and end of any religious ceremony; in Orphism, her worship is always the beginning, while in Roman worship hers was always the conclusion.

These customs are mentioned in the Homeric Hymn #29:
Hestia, in the high dwellings of all, both deathless gods and men who walk on earth, you have gained an everlasting abode and highest honor: glorious is your portion and your right. For without you mortals hold no banquet, —where one does not duly pour sweet wine in offering to Hestia both first and last.

In Plato's Cratylus:
Sokrates: Let us inquire what thought men had in giving them [the gods] their names . . . The first men who gave names [to the gods] were no ordinary persons, but high thinkers and great talkers . . . Shall we, then, begin with Hestia, according to custom? . . . Then what would you say the man had in mind who gave Hestia her name? . . . Take that which we call ousia (reality, essence); some people call it essia, and still others ôsia. First, then, in connection with the second of these forms, it is reasonable that the essence of things be called Hestia; and moreover, because we ourselves say of that which partakes of reality ‘it is’ (estin), the name Hestia would be correct in this connection also; for apparently we also called ousia (reality) essia in ancient times. And besides, if you consider it in connection with sacrifices, you would come to the conclusion that those who established them understood the name in that way; for those who called the essence of things essia would naturally sacrifice to Hestia first of all the gods. Those on the other hand, who say ôsia would agree, well enough with Herakleitos that all things move and nothing remains still. So they would say the cause and ruler of things was the pushing power (ôthoun), wherefore it had been rightly named ôsia."

And in other locations (theoi.com has a complete list).

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any 'stepping-down'. There is no such myth; among the Twelve Gods, there are six gods, and six goddesses — this is very important — Dionysos is a chthonic Zefs, much like Plouton; an extension of an ouranic god, but himself chthonic.

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Worshipper of Eros on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:22 pm

So Hestia is the 'essence' of all things, that sounds rather abstract and all encompassing (which would explain why such importance is placed upon her.) Perhaps I need to contemplate that idea to let it 'sink in'.

I've also heard that as Hestia is the hearth flame, that burnt offerings 'pass' through her, is that also correct?

Hestia is a very interesting Goddess to me, I'm trying to learn more as I feel as though I've neglected her in terms of understanding.

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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Erodius on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:51 pm

So Hestia is the 'essence' of all things, that sounds rather abstract and all encompassing (which would explain why such importance is placed upon her.) Perhaps I need to contemplate that idea to let it 'sink in'.


In a way, yes. In Orphic theology, Estia is the same as the Mother of Gods/Rhea, who is herself the divine Earth principle, which is united with the Logos of Aether to beget all things in our world — in this way, Estia is very literally the foundation, and the 'rock' of Gods and men on which everything rests.

I've also heard that as Hestia is the hearth flame, that burnt offerings 'pass' through her, is that also correct?

Yes, it is. Wink

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Dimitra & Estia

Post  Worshipper of Eros on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:07 pm

Thanks for your help Smile
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