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Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Megara on Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:41 pm

So, I'm in an Interfaith group up at my university, and it's basically a group that has people from a bunch of different faith backgrounds come together and discuss religion in a very respectful way. Mostly, we meet so that we can learn from one another, and to dispel any myths that people have about our respective religions. [it's called Interfaith Mythbusters]

SO! This last year was my first year and I said that I follow hellenismos/believe and worship the gods in the pantheon [the Greek gods]. Everybody would Always ask questions because 1. it was something they'd never heard of and 2. I was the only polytheist in the entire group. haha So, this coming [school] year I want to give a presentation.

That having been said, I wanted to know, from my fellow worshippers what things you think I should include. What specific "myths" should I dispel about the religion, how exactly should I refer to the religion? [I only ask that because I've literally seen like, 12 different "right" and "wrong" ways of referring to the religion and it's getting kind of annoying, and I don't want to refer to it incorrectly in my presentation.] I've been doing a LOT of research over the past few years [I was on the old site a lot and did a lot of post readings and learned quite a bit] but I wanted to know what YOU GUYS thought I should have in my presentation.

Basic beliefs/principles. How it's incorporated into your lives; worship/offerings, etc. I know that's asking a lot, but that's why I'm asking this now and not like, 2 days before the presentation. haha I want to make sure I have all of my facts right. Although I've done a lot of reading, a lot of it - unfortunately- seems contradicting, and confusing at times so...yeah.

Thanks to anybody who contributes! =D
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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Erodius on Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:57 pm

Megara wrote:What specific "myths" should I dispel about the religion, how exactly should I refer to the religion?

I think the fact of presenting Olympianism as an actual religion is, in and of itself, something of a myth-buster for probably a great many people. Individuals outside of specialized historical studies are oftentimes genuinely unaware that there was any sort of actual religion in the western world before the advent of the Christian church. 

As far as referring to the religion, the best English word, as far as actual historical usage and dictionary attestation, is 'Olympianism'. 'Dodecatheism' is a more recent coinage, and 'Ellinismos' is not a specifically religious term, and can be applied to anything that is a part of Greek culture. The word was suitable to use in reference to non-Christian religion in the late Roman Empire because, at the time, the word 'Greek' or 'Hellene' was synonymous with 'non-Christian.' Christian Greeks in the late Empire called themselves 'Romans'  (in Greek: Rhomaioi) actually, and this gave rise to the fact that the Arab and Turkish Muslim adversaries of the Greek Christian Byzantine Empire referred to the people as 'Rum'. Up until around World War I with the fall of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, the area we now call Greece was called 'Rumelia', Turkish for 'land of the Romans.' However, after the Greek Wars of Independence from Turkey, nationalists began encouraging people to reclaim the word 'Hellene' as a statement of Greek identity, and this is the word used by Greeks today of any religion. As such, 'Ellinismos' is anything Greek. Olympian religion is absolutely a major part and root of Ellinismos, but they are not synonymous. It is similar to the use of the word 'Hinduism.' 'Hindus' do not call their religion 'Hinduism', they usually refer to is as Sanatana Dharma (the eternal Truth/Religion), or just 'Dharma'. 

Another misconception you might want to address is the idea that mythology is or was considered to be literally true — which, at least in terms of educated individuals, was not and should not be the case. You might also want to say something, as I have had to on here, about the fact that not all mythology is religious. Some stories are simple fantasy tales told for entertainment, and in many cases, a basic moral lesson, just as we still tell stories of Cinderella and the Three Little Pigs.

Additionally, I would venture that most average people are entirely unaware of even the existence of Mystery religions. There is far, far more to both Olympian myth and religion than one finds in Homer or Hesiod. You could discuss the differences between Mystery religions and public religion, how the concept of the salvation of the Soul developed in them, and perhaps some of the parallels between certain Mystery cults like Mithraism and Orphism and the Christian religion. In a class I took myself a few semesters ago about early Christianity, the professor gave a presentation, much to my delight, but to the horror of some of the evangelical Christians in the class, of the dramatic similarity between the Christian Jesus of Nazareth and the nearly contemporaneous Orpheo-Pythagorean Theios* Apollonius of Tyana. You could also compare the Classical Mystery religions of Olympianism with the bhakti cults of Hindu religion, like Lingayatism, the Varkaris of Maharashtra, and Vaishnava movements like the Krishnaites, of which the widespread ISKCON is a part. If you're really up for it, you could also explore the similarities between Orphism and the Zurvanite branch of Zoroastrianism. 


Megara wrote:Basic beliefs/principles. How it's incorporated into your lives; worship/offerings, etc.

Much of belief depends a lot on the particular sect/school/tradition you are discussing. However, a few things that are universal features of belief in Olympian religions are 1. the existence of the traditional Twelve Gods, 2. the necessity of living a virtuous life (though the motives for this can differ depending on the sect), and 3. the possibility of encouraging the good graces of the Gods through acts of worship, which involve three basic actions, a. Hymnodia: the recitation of religious hymns and prayers, b. Sacrifice: the offering of things of value to a god or gods, typically through immolation, and c. Libation: the outpouring of liquid offerings. If you want to get into much more than that in terms of belief, principle and practice, you will have to get into more of the specifics of particular cults and religious traditions.

I hope that is helpful for a start. If I've failed to address something, please let me know.

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Megara on Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:09 pm

That's great! Thanks so much!

One thing that I've noticed is that people tend to refer to hellenismos as a pagan religion. I'm not quite sure how to go about distinguishing the difference between traditional paganism, and hellenismos. I think that most people think that anything that has to do with polytheism is automatically "pagan", but I don't consider hellenismos a "pagan" religion. Personally, when I think of paganism, I think of like, the ancient Northern European religions; but that's again, sticky, because then that would mean that asatru is pagan. =/ 

Sorry if these are kind of stupid questions! I just want to make sure I get my facts right and that I can dispel any myths that I have about hellenismos. haha I'm guess I'm a bit more of a "newbie" than I thought I was. =P
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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  tayarlin on Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:55 pm

If I'm thinking with a clear mind, the early Christians are the one that deemed us as such. Or at least that is when it began to hold negative connotations. In Winter's book Kharis: Hellenic Polytheism Explored, she acknowledges the debate in which we should/can/would include ourselves in the larger "pagan community."

As for your question about belief systems and things of that nature, I would bring up the Delphic Maxims. They provided the basis for virtuous worship and life. Smile

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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Erodius on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:57 pm

Megara wrote:One thing that I've noticed is that people tend to refer to hellenismos as a pagan religion. I'm not quite sure how to go about distinguishing the difference between traditional paganism, and hellenismos. I think that most people think that anything that has to do with polytheism is automatically "pagan", but I don't consider hellenismos a "pagan" religion. Personally, when I think of paganism, I think of like, the ancient Northern European religions; but that's again, sticky, because then that would mean that asatru is pagan. =/ 

Sorry if these are kind of stupid questions! I just want to make sure I get my facts right and that I can dispel any myths that I have about hellenismos. haha I'm guess I'm a bit more of a "newbie" than I thought I was. =P

'Paganism' is from the Latin 'paganus' with the suffix '-ismus'. 'Paganus' means 'rustic person / hick' and '-ismus' means 'way/manner'. So 'paganism' is 'the way of the hick/hillbilly.' It's an intentionally derogatory coinage used by a few Christian polemicists to refer to people unconverted to Christianity as being uneducated, ignorant, and backward. 

There is no such thing as 'paganism'. Traditional paganism is an oxymoron. There is no 'traditional paganism', and there never has existed such a thing. Anyone who tells you this either does not know any better, is deliberately misleading you, or is simply being lazy in their word usage. What a veritable ocean of individuals today call 'Paganism' (with a capital 'P') is a modern creation that is derived from a synthesis of (mostly British) folklore, now-defunct anthropological theories, New Age ideas, a dose of feminism, Renaissance and 18th/19th-century occultism, a sort of 'Christianophobia', and a whole lot of just plain personal creation of individual 'Pagans'. While there are some exceptions, self-described 'pagans' are usually individuals practicing a derivation of Wicca, without having been received, (or, by choice, having not even sought reception) into any Wiccan lineage tradition. 


Here is a short article from my sodalitas addressing the term in more depth: Pagan: A Controversial Term



 Yes, for a great many people even still, anything at all other than Christianity or Judaism is 'paganism' (for centuries in Mediaeval Europe, Muslims were considered 'pagans'). 


'Hellenismos', furthermore, as I mentioned in another post, is a culture, not a religion. 



tayarlin wrote:In Sarah Winter's book Kharis: Hellenic Polytheism Explored, she acknowledges the debate in which we should/can/would include ourselves in the larger "pagan community."

As for your question about belief systems and things of that nature, I would bring up the Delphic Maxims. They provided the basis for virtuous worship and life. 

Winter ought to be taken with a grain of salt and shot of skepticism, to be very honest. Especially if you are looking at later versions of her book, which she has ceased editing because she has openly left the practice of Greek religion in favor of her own eclectic system, influenced by New Age 'shamanism.' After the first edition of her book, or so I have been told, her later edits are reflective of her own changes in belief in favor of a more eclectic and New-Age influenced system. 


Finally, while it's certainly fine to bring up the Delphic Maxims, they are not the only, nor universal moral code of Olympianic religion. There are likewise the Golden Verses, and the Sentences of Sextus and Demophilus, the Enchiridion of Epictetus, and others. 

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  tayarlin on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:26 pm

Regardless, her ideas, as anyone's are worth a listen and open mind.

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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Erodius on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:49 pm

tayarlin wrote:Regardless, her ideas, as anyone's are worth a listen and open mind.


That's certainly partially true. Anyone's ideas are worth a listen, even bad or dangerous ones. Nobody would be able to respond to these if they were never put out; no one could argue against Hitler's ideology without reading first Mein Kampf. However, I disagree that all ideas are worth an open mind, (as in my example) at least as far as I interpret 'open mind' to mean.

I think the only good way to receive any idea, from whatever source, is with a mind of sensibility, a critical eye, tact, and exacting discernment. As found in Sallustius, particular with regard to religious subjects:

"Those who wish to hear . . . should have been well guided from childhood and not habituated to foolish beliefs. They should also be in disposition good and sensible, that they may properly attend to teaching."

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Callisto on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Megara wrote:That's great! Thanks so much!

One thing that I've noticed is that people tend to refer to hellenismos as a pagan religion. I'm not quite sure how to go about distinguishing the difference between traditional paganism, and hellenismos. I think that most people think that anything that has to do with polytheism is automatically "pagan", but I don't consider hellenismos a "pagan" religion. Personally, when I think of paganism, I think of like, the ancient Northern European religions; but that's again, sticky, because then that would mean that asatru is pagan. =/ 

Sorry if these are kind of stupid questions! I just want to make sure I get my facts right and that I can dispel any myths that I have about hellenismos. haha I'm guess I'm a bit more of a "newbie" than I thought I was. =P

What you mean by "traditional paganism" would be better referred to as ancient "popular religions" or "folk religions", indicating the ways of the given ancient peoples.  Modern religious movements that seek to reconstruct and reestablish these practices are better referred to collectively as "Reconstructionism". While these are current and polytheistic, they are not the same as "Neopaganism" - which is often simply referred to as "Paganism".  Neopaganism consists of wholly modern practices that can be inspired by ancient religions but they are not reconstructions of those ancient religion (Neopagans generally cherry-pick and blend from a multitude of influences). They largely draw on a multitude of sources, mostly Western esotericism and New Age practices, in addition to whatever inspirations taken from ancient beliefs.

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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Callisto on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:41 pm

Megara wrote:That having been said, I wanted to know, from my fellow worshippers what things you think I should include. What specific "myths" should I dispel about the religion, how exactly should I refer to the religion?

As already suggested, explaining how the myths are allegorical and should not be taken as literal. Another big misconception is idolatry, that statues were/are worshiped as the gods themselves. Also, perhaps discuss Virtue (areté) and what it means in the religion - in a discussion elsewhere someone insisted that there can be no virtue without "original sin".

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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Megara on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:17 am

Eroidus wrote:'Hellenismos', furthermore, as I mentioned in another post, is a culture, not a religion. 

My apologies if my, apparent, lack of proper information has led me astray, but I was under the impression that "Hellenismos" was a religion.
"Nonetheless, in the framework of philosophy and religion, particularly outside of Greece, Ællinismόs is the word that has come to refer to the worship of the traditional Gods of ancient Greece, most notably, the Twelve Olympian Gods."- http://www.hellenicgods.org/hellenismos

Additionally,
"I have heard other names used by people who worship the ancient Gods; I'm confused?  There are many terms currently in use, such as Hellenismos, Olympianism, Dodekatheism, Hellenic polytheism, Hellenism, Hellenic paganism, Hellenic pantheism, Greek pantheism, Hellenic reconstructionism, the ancient Greek religion, or simply, the worship of the Hellenic Gods."- http://www.hellenicgods.org/projectstatement
"What is Hellenismos?
Hellenismos, in its deeper meaning, is the noble path that promotes the development of personal excellence known as aræti (arete; Gr. ἀρετή, ἈΡΕΤΉ). It is a way of life, working with the natural world by means of Natural Laws, through the worship of the pantheon of Gods of ancient Greece, in particular, the Twelve  Olympians, and examining life through means of genuine philosophy."- http://www.hellenicgods.org/projectstatement

I don't mean to anger you, or frustrate you, or anything with these questions; honest! I'm just trying to understand better so that I can be properly informed. Very Happy
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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Erodius on Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:24 pm

Oo, a resurrected ancient thread! Haha  Wink


You are not ‘astray’ — just in the same confusing boat as just about everyone is.
 
It is not as simple as that. Many people outside of Greece use that word to refer to Classical Graeco-Roman religion because that is a term that the emperor Julian used during his religious reformation attempts. However, at that time in history, ‘Hellene’ referred to a culturally Hellenized person who was not a Christian. This remained the case, actually, until about 200 years ago, when, over the course of the Greek national awakening and revolt against the Ottoman Turks, the term ‘Hellene’ was revived as a term of national designation.
 
It is a religion in the same sense as ‘Hinduism’ is a religion. It is an artificial, external term, not much used by actual adherents, and that means a culture and ethnicity (which might or might not entail a particular religion).
 
None of the definitions you include are wrong – they are not at all. It is the term to which they are so often attached “Hellēnismós” which is ambiguous.
 

The broader point being, just because something is done/used a certain way, does not mean that it necessarily should be done/used that way.

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Megara on Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:34 pm

Aaaaahhhhh. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification!
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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  DavidMcCann on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:43 pm

On the use of the term pagan.

We can (with a few marginal cases) distinguish between primary religions, which have grown naturally over the millennia, and secondary ones which have been created. I use "paganism" as a  synonym for "primary religion" — it's certainly easier to speak of a "pagan" than a "practitioner of a primary religion" — and this use seems to be accepted in academia. The magazine Hindu Voice accepts the designation pagan, and a recent discussion among Hindus at religiousforums.com showed few objections. Although there are obvious differences, the various pagan practices are not incompatible in the way that, say, Christianity and Islam are. Ancient Greeks who settled in India used the local temples, just as Romans who came to Britain accepted Celtic gods. That is why languages like Chinese and Classical Greek have no word for religion: they do not need to distinguish this one from that one. As Maximus of Tyre said, Greeks and foreigners all believe the same things.

There is, of course, the question of "neopaganism". Wicca was created in the mistaken belief that it was a reconstruction, and pagan Druidry in the belief that actual Celtic religion was lost beyond recall, but one could recapture its spirit. Neither is a pagan religion in the sense of being a primary religion, but insofar as they try to be pagan, it would be unreasonable to deny them the right to use the label — so long as we remember that neopagans are pagans by courtesy, as it were.

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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Valencia2014 on Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:00 pm

Are most pagan religions animist? I've read that what distinguishes many pagan religions from the Abrahamic religions is their perception of Nature being a living and divine thing or entity rather than just dead matter.

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Re: Basic Philosophies 101

Post  Achrelus on Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:39 am

I would like to chime in, about the use of the word pagan.

I belong to an interfaith forum, and there are a wide variety of faiths there. Among them are a few followers of ancient Nordic religion, I am not sure if any furthar clarification is needed, although they tend to either be Celtic Germanic or Slavic, but before I left Olympianism I had a few heated debates on the word pagan, and now that it no longer holds any personal meaning to me I see it a bit differently. It pertains little to Olympianism, or the forum, but may clear up interfaith misunderstandings. Pagan nowadays is used in a variety of ways, which I will outline below in more or less detail for importance.

As Erodius has said, pagan has its roots in the old Latin word for rustic or "of the country", and was coined by the early christians as a derogatory insult. He has explained this more than well enough. As a result of this, most followers of Olympian faiths tend to still hold it as deragatory and insulting, which it is often still used as, because it is directly linked to the culture.

There is, as has also been said well enough, the way many modern abrahamists use it, which could mean anything from "not my religion" to "some other type of theism." It is used either derogatorily or as a mis-classification by unknowing people.

Of difference from the common view of Greco-Roman faiths, there are many modern people of revivalist pre-christian faiths, such as my Norse acquaintance, who embrace the term. How they embrace it varies, and even in his own religious community not all do. But a majority of people he personally knows as well people of various faiths I have met on the other forum embrace the term as a blanket term for pre-christian European religions. I still contest the use of this, as categorically speaking it links far away religious systems and separates closer together ones, but nonetheless it is a popular use of the word you may encounter. The reasoning for embracing it has widely been, as far as I have witnessed, do take over the word as a term of classification that means something to them, and as a consequence take it away from christians (mainly) who would try to use it insultingly. It is hotly contested, and if you discuss the word in your group you may want to make clear that not all groups that outsiders classify as pagan actually classify themselves that way, despite the fact that others do.

Then there are the gods damn new agers, who often claim to follow old religions when they indeed have little to no remnants of any of the old traditions, and will often mix pantheons to their liking. They also seem to accept the term pagan, and christians use it to describe them for above reasons. This makes it harder for the above people to take the term over as their own, because they muddy up attempts at a non-deragatory and classification term lumping themselves together with old faiths and confusing the distinction, as well as driving communities like this one even farther away from the term than they were already.

So whatever the term means to individuals here, this is what I have gathered on the word from communities outside of this one, and however it may be used in further discussions here or elsewhere it should be useful for interfaith understandings.
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