Olympianismos
Welcome to Olympianismos!

Rebuttals

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Rebuttals

Post  spokane89 on Fri May 24, 2013 1:30 am

Without getting to in depth with the story itself I'd like to relate this to you; I have often been in conversation with monotheists who have tried to show me the error in my ways by using appeals to authorities, mainly western philosophers, who claim that monotheism is the true way. One even went as far as to claim the most renown Greek philosophers as supporting his claim. He spouted a few direct quotes (though I can recall who he quoted) and left not too long after. This left me in no form of doubt and my faith remains unshaken, I simply came to the realization I didn't have any direct quotes that supporter any of my views either, and couldn't come up with anything beyond Celsus' criticisms. I've read more theological works and hymns than I have any of the other deep contemplation and simply wish to be pointed in the right direction; who do I read for the pro-polytheism quotes? Razz
avatar
spokane89
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 106
Join date : 2013-03-23
Age : 28
Location : Spokane WA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  Erodius on Fri May 24, 2013 11:07 am

The issue you will have is that most Classical philosophical systems do not support quite the same 'polytheism' as some people think of as being characteristic of Greek religion. Some philosophies accept the existence of the traditional gods, but consider them to be subservient to various other higher powers, usually with one Source Power. Others consider that all of the gods exist uniquely, but are actually different 'body parts' of a single, two-gendered Divinity, and whose theology is what would be called 'polymorphic monotheism', which is essentially the belief of contemporary Hinduism.

There are philosophical works that explore the various roles of the different gods in the governance of the cosmos, like Sallustius, but I can't think of any that are specific defenses of polytheism. There probably was not much of an impetus to write defenses of 'hard polytheism' because, at the time when Christianity was spreading, the educated Hellene theologians who would be writing against them were predominantly adherents of 'polymorphic monotheism' (although Christians would almost certainly still consider this to be polytheism). When they would refute Christianity, they argued against the basic teachings of Christianity, rather than against their belief in a certain number of deity.

Finally, as it's been said on this forum already, Christianity is full of ideas from Greek mystery religions, and is really not radically different from many other mystery cults, both Judaic and Graeco-Roman. In later Orphism and Hermetism, for instance, the name 'Iao' (the name of the Jewish god Yahweh) was sometimes used as a name for Bacchus and for Iupiter/Zefs. The Christian Trinity, eucharist, and the dying-rising-god theology also evidently derive from certain mystery cults, rather than from Judaism.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: eusebeis.wordpress.com
The Orphic Way: www.hellenicgods.org
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 925
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  tayarlin on Fri May 24, 2013 11:14 pm

The YSEE gives great rebuttals to such! I believe it is under FAQ section, and their responses are very well thought out. Granted, these are not quotes from any particular text, but may help in future quarrels Smile !

tayarlin
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 66
Join date : 2013-04-19
Age : 25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  Erodius on Fri May 24, 2013 11:48 pm

Well, it is obvious to anyone who believes in Divinity that there are multiple Powers/Stations at work in the process of creating. The difference between monotheism and polytheism is whether one considers these Stations of Divinity to have individual personae or not.

I think it is something like asking if someone is one person or multiple people. I know I act radically different around my friends versus my parents, or my professors, or my employers, and somewhat different with my mother versus my father, and likewise different depending on which of my friends I am with. All of these personalities are within my body, but are they really all truly the same person? I think there are solid cases for both 'yes' and 'no'.

This is why I say, from my reasoning, that there are really countless gods, but really only sixteen, but actually twelve, but really just nine, but actually three, but really two, but actually one. All positive numbers are simultaneously the correct answer, as I perceive it.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: eusebeis.wordpress.com
The Orphic Way: www.hellenicgods.org
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 925
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  J_Agathokles on Sun May 26, 2013 1:16 pm

"Against the Galilaeans" by Emperor Iulianus is also a good text to read, though as Erodius said, more about the beliefs of Christianity, then about the number of deities. Here it is: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Against_the_Galileans

J_Agathokles
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 172
Join date : 2013-03-19
Age : 27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  Apollyon on Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:03 pm

J_Agathokles wrote:"Against the Galilaeans" by Emperor Iulianus is also a good text to read, though as Erodius said, more about the beliefs of Christianity, then about the number of deities. Here it is: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Against_the_Galileans
To REALLY appreciate his work, though, You should print it out and read it. I enjoyed it a great deal more on actual paper than I did a screen.
avatar
Apollyon
Junior Member
Junior Member

Posts : 40
Join date : 2013-03-24
Age : 31
Location : Indiana

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  Erodius on Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:19 am

Apollyon wrote:
To REALLY appreciate his work, though, You should print it out and read it. I enjoyed it a great deal more on actual paper than I did a screen.
Agreed. I've got an enormous leather three-ring binder full of hard copies of everything you can imagine; just about anything that I've not been able to acquire in book form.

I hate reading things on a screen. I'm only in my 20s and I'm already blind as a bat; frighteningly nearsighted. I'd like to keep what little eyesight I have left.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


ΗΣΦ

Blog: eusebeis.wordpress.com
The Orphic Way: www.hellenicgods.org
avatar
Erodius
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 925
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 26

View user profile http://eusebeis.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  J_Agathokles on Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:32 am

I too prefer to read long texts on paper, or on an eReader.

J_Agathokles
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 172
Join date : 2013-03-19
Age : 27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  Vadzhij on Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:11 pm

You should first become thoroughly acquainted with the terms: monotheism, polytheism, henotheism, monism, dualism. Then you can make up your mind as to which term seems most reasonable to you. I know most people believe that there were only two options regarding theism, either monotheists adhering to the Judaeo-Christian tradition and polytheists adhering to Graeco-Roman tradition. The truth of the matter is, it's not that simple.

Vadzhij
Newbie
Newbie

Posts : 20
Join date : 2014-09-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  TheSeekingDisciple on Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:04 pm

I find that when it comes to ethnic faiths, the followers tend not to be caught up on monotheism-polytheism dichotomy. It seems to be a term used by outsiders rather than from someone in the faith. Also, from my own readings, The One/Good is beyond theism. Calling it one is not even accurate since it is beyond numbers or anything really.
avatar
TheSeekingDisciple
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 50
Join date : 2014-05-06
Age : 25
Location : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  TheSeekingDisciple on Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:55 pm

Sorry to double post here, but from my perspective as a both a Bacchus/Hermetic/Orphic (with Shaiva elements) and a Traditional Oji-Cree. I see monotheism and polytheism as nothing more than a false dichotomy. I don't really label my beliefs, but I guess the best term would be a transtheist. Ultimately, I see the Good as higher than all things and by extension all gods and the same would go for what the Ojibwas and Crees call Gitchi Manitou (roughly translated as Great Mystery/Spirit/Essence). Since I believe the ultimate force is beyond the level of gods, I am a transtheist.
avatar
TheSeekingDisciple
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 50
Join date : 2014-05-06
Age : 25
Location : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  De Li on Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:25 am

TheSeekingDisciple wrote:Sorry to double post here, but from my perspective as a both a Bacchus/Hermetic/Orphic (with Shaiva elements) and a Traditional Oji-Cree. I see monotheism and polytheism as nothing more than a false dichotomy. I don't really label my beliefs, but I guess the best term would be a transtheist. Ultimately, I see the Good as higher than all things and by extension all gods and the same would go for what the Ojibwas and Crees call Gitchi Manitou (roughly translated as Great Mystery/Spirit/Essence). Since I believe the ultimate force is beyond the level of gods, I am a transtheist.

I am with you on this TheSeekingDisciple. Smile

I'd be interested to hear more about how you incorporate the traditional Oji-Cree faith -- do you incorporate one into the other? -- do they run analogue for you? -- or do you practice both simultaneously but separate?

Myself I am an Orphic-Neoplatonist and Shaiva Siddhanta; both traditions run completely analogue, with my cultural emphasis on the Graeco-Roman cultural expression.
avatar
De Li
Junior Member
Junior Member

Posts : 39
Join date : 2013-05-29
Location : England

View user profile http://hearthofheid.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  TheSeekingDisciple on Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:34 am

De Li wrote:
TheSeekingDisciple wrote:Sorry to double post here, but from my perspective as a both a Bacchus/Hermetic/Orphic (with Shaiva elements) and a Traditional Oji-Cree. I see monotheism and polytheism as nothing more than a false dichotomy. I don't really label my beliefs, but I guess the best term would be a transtheist. Ultimately, I see the Good as higher than all things and by extension all gods and the same would go for what the Ojibwas and Crees call Gitchi Manitou (roughly translated as Great Mystery/Spirit/Essence). Since I believe the ultimate force is beyond the level of gods, I am a transtheist.

I am with you on this TheSeekingDisciple. Smile

I'd be interested to hear more about how you incorporate the traditional Oji-Cree faith -- do you incorporate one into the other? -- do they run analogue for you? -- or do you practice both simultaneously but separate?

Myself I am an Orphic-Neoplatonist and Shaiva Siddhanta; both traditions run completely analogue, with my cultural emphasis on the Graeco-Roman cultural expression.

Out of respect for my Elders, I keep Dionysos out of the sweat lodge. I practice them separately and at the same time, but I would be lying if I said they did not influence each other. I consider myself bi-cultural and it can be tough to "jump from one canoe to the other", but it is "easier than straddling them."
avatar
TheSeekingDisciple
Full Member
Full Member

Posts : 50
Join date : 2014-05-06
Age : 25
Location : Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  De Li on Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:17 am

TheSeekingDisciple wrote:
De Li wrote:
TheSeekingDisciple wrote:Sorry to double post here, but from my perspective as a both a Bacchus/Hermetic/Orphic (with Shaiva elements) and a Traditional Oji-Cree. I see monotheism and polytheism as nothing more than a false dichotomy. I don't really label my beliefs, but I guess the best term would be a transtheist. Ultimately, I see the Good as higher than all things and by extension all gods and the same would go for what the Ojibwas and Crees call Gitchi Manitou (roughly translated as Great Mystery/Spirit/Essence). Since I believe the ultimate force is beyond the level of gods, I am a transtheist.

I am with you on this TheSeekingDisciple. Smile

I'd be interested to hear more about how you incorporate the traditional Oji-Cree faith -- do you incorporate one into the other? -- do they run analogue for you? -- or do you practice both simultaneously but separate?

Myself I am an Orphic-Neoplatonist and Shaiva Siddhanta; both traditions run completely analogue, with my cultural emphasis on the Graeco-Roman cultural expression.

Out of respect for my Elders, I keep Dionysos out of the sweat lodge. I practice them separately and at the same time, but I would be lying if I said they did not influence each other.  I consider myself bi-cultural and it can be tough to "jump from one canoe to the other", but it is "easier than straddling them."

Thank you for your reply. I can relate somewhat -- within a Hindu temple or community I would also not display Graeco-Roman culture, and if I were ever to do a ritual with a Hellenist --who is not simultaneously Hindu Wink -- I would not bring Hinduism into it. Having said that, in my experience both Hindus and Hellenics are aware of and open to discuss the parallels between the two religio-cultural expressions. Smile
avatar
De Li
Junior Member
Junior Member

Posts : 39
Join date : 2013-05-29
Location : England

View user profile http://hearthofheid.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: Rebuttals

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum