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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Sat May 18, 2013 5:33 pm

I was also suffering quite a bit from nightmares of Hell and a huge, irrational fear of the Christian God making the world end, both things which my family talked about a lot. When I was twelve I began to feel rather desperate, so I prayed for whoever or whatever existed to come to me.

Well, I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but the world will end. Earth is hylic and thus, mortal, as is the Sun. Both will die one day, but this is not scientifically expected to occur for another several million years. Humanity has the ability as well to annihilate all life several times over. One needs only read Hesiod's Works & Days to see a prediction of the destruction of human civilization after it has reached an irreversible level of degeneracy. 'Hell', or something essentially equivalent as a punitive afterlife for the bad is also by no means unique to Christianity. Islam, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism and a variety of Classical Graeco-Roman traditions all recognize some sort of 'hell', or multiple 'hells' of varied character. The Christian 'Hell' derives not from Torah-Judaism, which lacks such a concept, but instead largely from a variety of Hellenistic Mystery cults.

An angel went to drag me into the sun (which I was mortally afraid of), and Athene sprang out of nowhere to save me. I'd felt the sun burning me, and oh, it hurt! But now the things which were hurting me were burning, and I was safe...

You cannot be dragged into the Sun; that is an irrational fear. Even at the speed of light, it would take several minutes to reach the Sun from Earth, and no human would survive the journey in the first place. You should not fear the Sun, that's nonsense. The Sun is the governor of our entire systemic microcosm, without which our microcosm could not even exist. All life on earth of every form and sort is indebted to the vivifying powers of the Sun.

You needn't worry yourself over nightmares. No They're only your subconscious wandering around while you are otherwise inactive. No fear, nor thought, nor weaving of some insignificant cacodaemon can cause you any harm whatsoever unless you consent to it and let it govern you.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  Anna Faith on Sun May 19, 2013 11:38 am

Dreams do not have to be rational, nor do they have to follow the rules of science because dreams are products of our souls or our thoughts, and neither the soul or thought follows the patterns set forth by the universe. My nightmares were going beyond normal nightmares in the way that they were repetitive, and being a child, they were very terrifying to me at the time.

I believe that dreams may mean something, even beyond concoctions of our subconscious mind. To me, the ability of the mind to imagine and dream (of something I'd never been afraid of before, by the way) is what proves that the soul and the body are two separate things, and not so firmly intertwined as for the theory of life beyond death to have no substance. The soul is of aether, and thus is unaffected by the terrestrial universe; it has no physical qualities, and the soul transcends the normalcy of our physical bodies. Who is to say what causes dreams, imagination, fear, or otherwise? Certainly not science, because scientists are mortal and thus their theories are fallible. In some cases, dreams are admittedly learned patterns: Dreams based around frightening movies or novels, for instance. In other instances (where nothing the likes of what is being dreamed has ever been observed or imagined before) the idea must come from somewhere. My theory is that these dreams are our souls communicating with our physical substance. However, I am only mortal, and so even that theory may easily be disproved.

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Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Sun May 19, 2013 12:21 pm

neither the soul or thought follows the patterns set forth by the universe.

They both do, actually. Everything in the universe is subject to it.

The soul is of aether, and thus is unaffected by the terrestrial universe; it has no physical qualities, and the soul transcends the normalcy of our physical bodies.

Yes, but aether is nothing supernatural, and is deeply affected by the terrestrial universe. It is simply the root element from which the others proceed. Aether is 100% physical, every bit as much as your computer screen, it is simply intangible at the human ontological level. There is nothing outside of elemental nature; all existence is natural and elemental — we simply cannot directly perceive all of it.

Certainly not science, because scientists are mortal and thus their theories are fallible.

Well, yes and no. Untested/untestable hypotheses are fallible, but those that are tested and repeatedly confirmed are not. That's an ad hominem fallacy. Dreaming is a very physical action, and the result of neural firings in the brain while the body is idle. That is where dreams come from. Discerning why anyone sees what anyone sees in a dream is exceedingly difficult (impossible really), because the images can come from past memories, recent thoughts, images seen, diet, sensations during sleep, or completely new inventions of the mind — usually some combination of all of these.

My theory is that these dreams are our souls communicating with our physical substance.

Do you mean the Logic Mind/Soul communicating to the Appetitive Mind/Soul? scratch

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  Linda on Sun May 19, 2013 2:25 pm

Whatever the reason for nightmares, they are discomforting experiences and we do all we can to avoid and banish them. Including protecting usselves from them with our conscious as well as subconscious mind.

Anna Faith's experience with the sun and Athena might be that kind of subconscious kind of defence, it might be the brain conjuring up a vision of the goddess Athena because Anna finds confort in her. A vision there to protect her from the fear of the sun. Or it might as well really be a divine intervention to help a soul in turmoil, we will probably never know. What we do know though is that the human body and soul is an amazing combination with powers we are really only beginning to understand. What the mind can do to the body. Even the most sceptic medicine doctor today is admitting the existence of a placebo - the will to believe in a cure - and thus control groups are being used when testing new medicines.

Personally I am prepared to believe a really strong belief can cure even the cancer. And as such battling psycic discomforts like nightmares and fears is also possible. We can affirm health and security and somewhat aquire it. And what happened in Anna's dreamlike prayer is probably that she envisioned the goddess Athena helping her against the angel with malice intent, pulling her out of danger. I have done these kinds affirmations very consciously, asked the Gods to give me strenght and bravery to battle hardships in life, being it failure in love, in health or unemployment, and I have recieved help, being it a direct invention or not, I am delighted that I with our without the God's direct help have been victorious in these battles. And in any case I have given them my thanks, because somehow just knowing their presense and taking it in account have helped me.

I guess the same thing can be applied to you, Anna!

Wherever it was really Athena or your mind, give thanks to Athena because in one way or another this amazing goddess helped you.

The gods are beings we cannot even begin to understand, but for me it's often enough to know that they are on our side.

To me it is less important if it was a direct divine intervention or just my brain using my faith as a defence against hardships - I give thanks to the gods anyway because they have in one way or another enabled me to battle these hardships. And for that I am eternally grateful.

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Anna Faith on Sun May 19, 2013 5:23 pm

I went to the other thread, and alas, this was gone! Confusing for a second, lol. I certainly didn't mean for this to lead into a debate, but I kind of like to talk about things such as this, so all the better. Smile



They both do, actually. Everything in the universe is subject to it.

Yes, but aether is nothing supernatural, and is deeply affected by the terrestrial universe. It is simply the root element from which the others proceed. Aether is 100% physical, every bit as much as your computer screen, it is simply intangible at the human ontological level. There is nothing outside of elemental nature; all existence is natural and elemental — we simply cannot directly perceive all of it. [/quote]

Perhaps aether is the incorrect word to define what I'm meaning, though certainly the closest that I could think of. Imagine it like this: You're thinking, right? When someone else thinks, do you know that they are thinking? How can you prove that they are thinking, if you can't hear, see, touch, or feel what they are thinking? But you know that they are thinking, though it's not provable. The soul is, in my mind, made of the same substance: Neither provable or nonexistent. The soul is an element which, like a thought, is something that can't be heard or seen; how can you prove something that can't be studied? The soul is the median between elemental and physical being.

Well, yes and no. Untested/untestable hypotheses are fallible, but those that are tested and repeatedly confirmed are not. That's an ad hominem fallacy. Dreaming is a very physical action, and the result of neural firings in the brain while the body is idle. That is where dreams come from. Discerning why anyone sees what anyone sees in a dream is exceedingly difficult (impossible really), because the images can come from past memories, recent thoughts, images seen, diet, sensations during sleep, or completely new inventions of the mind — usually some combination of all of these.

Exactly. You can't prove why anyone sees what they see in a dream, because it's something that cannot be directly observed or experimented upon. The ability to think to one's self and to imagine entirely new things is something that cannot be entirely explained by science as of yet. We can say that most of the things we do day in and day out are out of habit, but what are we doing right now, and what are scientists doing when they think up new hypotheses? We're communicating ideas which are products of our minds, but where do those ideas come from? We could say that they are learned habits (as in, we've heard them before, and are only repeating what others have said), but the original thought must have stemmed from some perceivable source. More to the point, the idea originated with a human source, who thought of the idea. This ability to think and come up with original and revolutionary ideas (which literally have no previous mortal source) is what causes me to believe that the human soul is capable of thought free of the physical brain, which learns through habit.

Do you mean the Logic Mind/Soul communicating to the Appetitive Mind/Soul? scratch

I mean the "median" I discussed in the second paragraph of this reply. The separate, original-thinking and intangible soul (which gives us hypotheses, invention, etc.), communicating with the physical brain (which has been proved to learn through habit and invent due to need, and isn't given to spontaneity).




And Linda: My belief in the Gods (and maybe even the Gods themselves) has also helped me through a lot, and I feel like I've grown up with them. They've continually earned my respect and worship, and because of that I could literally imagine worshiping no one else but the Gods of Hellenismos (or Olympianismos). I believe that they are there, even though I can't see them, and even though they aren't at all probable by scientific standards. It really does apply to me, and I think all who have faith in the Gods, haha. Faith is an amazing thing. Smile

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Sun May 19, 2013 6:51 pm

Perhaps aether is the incorrect word to define what I'm meaning, though certainly the closest that I could think of. Imagine it like this: You're thinking, right? When someone else thinks, do you know that they are thinking? How can you prove that they are thinking, if you can't hear, see, touch, or feel what they are thinking? But you know that they are thinking, though it's not provable. The soul is, in my mind, made of the same substance: Neither provable or nonexistent. The soul is an element which, like a thought, is something that can't be heard or seen; how can you prove something that can't be studied? The soul is the median between elemental and physical being.

No, the soul is made up of Aether, that is correct. Noesis is the action of Aether, and of the Soul by extension; it means much more than 'thinking', but 'thinking' is certainly one way of translating noesis. I would actually say that, yes, it is provable that someone is thinking, both physically, by measuring neural electrical activity, and philosophically. Philosophically, in the Orphic tradition, any living, sentient being contains a Soul. All Souls are engaged in noesis, perpetually, that is their nature. This is an important distinction in Orphism. The Soul is an entity of Aether, noesis is an action of the Soul. The Soul is part of the Noeric/Intelligible cosmos, noesis is part of the Noetic/Intellectual cosmos, which is not so much a 'parallel universe' — those would only be additional Noeric cosmoi — but is a sort of proto-universe. Aristotelians would probably place the Noeric cosmos as a derivation of the Noetic, but I'm not entirely sure what they would have to say on the matter, if anything. I think I see what you are trying to get across in saying that you think of the soul as "between elemental and physical", but I'm saying that, at least in Orphism, elemental and physical are the synonymous, and the soul is both — a completely real, completely physical thing, made of matter, with even a weight and a density.

The ability to think to one's self and to imagine entirely new things is something that cannot be entirely explained by science as of yet. We can say that most of the things we do day in and day out are out of habit, but what are we doing right now, and what are scientists doing when they think up new hypotheses? We're communicating ideas which are products of our minds, but where do those ideas come from? We could say that they are learned habits (as in, we've heard them before, and are only repeating what others have said), but the original thought must have stemmed from some perceivable source. More to the point, the idea originated with a human source, who thought of the idea. This ability to think and come up with original and revolutionary ideas (which literally have no previous mortal source) is what causes me to believe that the human soul is capable of thought free of the physical brain, which learns through habit.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I actually do not think there is such a thing as a truly original idea, I would say that all ideas/thoughts (in the colloquial sense) have a previous, mortal source — although I would say it is virtually never just one source, but usually countless source ideas and experiences that interact to produce the product idea. I would absolutely agree that thought is possible in the Soul separate from the brain, but this sort of thought is what would more properly called noesis. This is why I mentioned that thought and noesis are not exactly the same thing. Generally speaking, it is usually not possible for the Soul to engage in perceptible noesis during embodied life — it still does so, but it is overlaid with and diluted by the whims and passions of life.

I mean the "median" I discussed in the second paragraph of this reply. The separate, original-thinking and intangible soul (which gives us hypotheses, invention, etc.), communicating with the physical brain (which has been proved to learn through habit and invent due to need, and isn't given to spontaneity).

The Thymetic Soul, then, it seems to me, is what you are discerning. This is the Soul-part that joins the Appetitive with the Logic/Rational. It's sometimes called the Middle Soul or the Spirited Soul, because it is active, rather than impulsive like the Appetitive Soul, but is not tranquil, like the Logic/Rational Soul. This is the part of the Soul that most individuals and average people would call/think of as the 'mind'. If you're saying that dreams arise primarily from the Thymetic Soul, which to me it sounds like you are, I would agree 100%. I think the confusion has been because of a difference in terminologies and our use of different definitions of key words.

It gives me really indescribable joy when I find that people are making basically Orpheo-Pythagorean/Platonic arguments out of simply their own thinking. cheers

I believe that they are there, even though I can't see them, and even though they aren't at all probable by scientific standards. It really does apply to me, and I think all who have faith in the Gods, haha. Faith is an amazing thing.

In Orphism, we would say that the Gods actually are provable by scientific standards, however, just as in Classical Antiquity, we really consider philosophy to be a branch of science. I think the separation of the two over the last few hundred years is a bit unfortunate. I, and other Orphics, don't have faith in the Gods, we know they exist — scientifically provable, by Classical science, rather than by simple terrestrial/observational science. Wink

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  Anna Faith on Sun May 19, 2013 7:37 pm

Erodius, it's amazing to talk to you! You know quite a bit, and I learned quite a bit. Yes, I think our differences were mainly in terminology... I think on these things quite often, but I never know the exact words to put forth my ideas eloquently, as I've never studied any of the works of the old philosophers, and so don't know the... Er... Lingo? Laughing

I can understand what you're saying about no idea being truly original. I suppose all ideas are born of situations that humans are placed into; even inventions such as the wheel were created when men needed to figure out a way to solve a problem, and the problem was already there.

I think I need a notebook to write down all of these things, so I can remember them all for the future.

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Anna Faith on Sun May 19, 2013 8:19 pm

Oh, and could you maybe give me the names of some ancient writings on this topic? I'd very much appreciate it. Smile

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Sun May 19, 2013 8:50 pm

On what, specifically?

The tripartite division of the Soul is a tenet of Orphism, and appears in the related Pythagorean philosophy, but is probably most famously discussed in the fourth book of Plato's Republic.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.5.iv.html

Although I would certainly recommend reading the complete text. Laughing

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  Anna Faith on Sun May 19, 2013 10:06 pm

I plan on reading the entire thing, actually.

I've identified as a follower of Hellenismos for four years; however, I don't think that I was mature enough in the past to realize all of what that entailed, beyond honoring the Gods. In the past few months the philosophical side of the religion continues to leap out at me, so I think that reading some of the works of the great philosophers will benefit me greatly.

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Sun May 19, 2013 10:38 pm

In the tradition I am part of, we say there are four pillars of religion:

1. Teachings Ακοή: the 'things heard'; the learning of the practice of religion

2. Right-minded Worship Θεουργία: worship of the Gods in a spirit of selfless devotion

3. Philosophy Φιλοσοφία: the embrace of wisdom and truth, the underlying framework of true piety

4. Virtue Αρετή: the purpose of religion and piety itself

In ascending order, each builds upon the prior. Smile study

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  Anna Faith on Sun May 19, 2013 11:08 pm

I ordered a book from the local library which has the most of Plato's works, including The Republic. Looking at the computer screen for too long tires my eyes.

And, I actually read that just a moment ago; I've been reading through a lot of the site on Orphic Hellenismos you've linked to in your signature. Deification is an idea another belief I've held for a long while which I've never been able to label properly, for lack of any in-depth study. I have something of a question on that, though: According to the site (and, the way I understand it) those who have committed crimes are "bound to earth". What exactly does this mean?

My apologies if I'm asking too many questions, but there's quite literally no one else that I am able to ask.

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 am

My apologies if I'm asking too many questions, but there's quite literally no one else that I am able to ask.

Not at all, no genuine question is senseless.

In Orphism, Souls that are governed by sins are bound to successive birth and death until they are purified of their accumulated corruption and cease committing further misdeeds. Sins are considered to literally make the Soul heavy, and heavy Souls descend back down into new bodies after death, rather than ascend to the superlunar Heavens. Why Souls are here on earth and why we are tempted to err at all is a longer story.

'Crime' here doesn't refer specifically to legal criminal actions, but more generally to the thing that prevents the Soul from achieving liberation and salvation from death and rebirth. 'Crime', 'sin', 'error' are all used interchangeably.

From the Orphic Rhapsodiai
222. All who live purely beneath the rays of the sun, so soon as they die, have a smoother path in a fair meadow beside deep-flowing Akheron, but those who have done evil beneath the rays of the sun, the insolent, are brought down below Kokytos to the chilly horrors of Tartaros.

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"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  ταιλερ ο πιστός on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:22 pm

i am fairly new to this religion, yet i feel a strong bond with the whole religion, i feel as i fit in, i'm happier. Olympianismos has welcomed me with open arms and i have had help with all problems no one could assist me with i know. yet, as welcome i feel, i do not understand the vivid nightmares I've been having for 2 years now since i fully came out that this was my religion,  these nightmare are filled with some sort of punishment to me, and usually involve Zeus or Hades... i do not know of anything i could have done to upset the gods but i can not seem to shake the feeling that they're watching over me, in a bad way. but lately I've been having dreams of other gods; Apollo; pan; and even Poseidon and these seem to be comforting me, and soothing some sort of wound, i see bandages and them healing me and then i wake. is something wrong with me? have i angered Zeus and Hades? i pray, i offer at least half of my meal to the gods and i'm not sure what else to do.. i have shrines but still i have these nightmares and odd dreams of healing.. any thoughts on whats wrong?..

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:37 pm

You are very young — take a few steps back, and relax.

Dreams can be sources of guidance in life and insights into one's subconscious — but they can also be complete nonsense. Quite often, the scenes that appear in dreams are conglomerations of images either seen or pondered by the mind at some point in the recent or not-too-distant past with thoughts weighing on the mind at the time of dormition, with the randomness of the wandering subconscious. 

Gods are immovable, and are never made 'angry' or 'appeased' — that is the stuff of old superstitions. Retribution for wrongful deeds committed is always proportional to the deed itself, and is carried out not by the Gods directly, but via the terrestrial daemones. Further, retribution may not be evident within one's life, but may instead manifest in a later life. 

Sacrifices are worthless without the right mindset — they're for our benefit, not that of the Gods. A splash of water out poured to the Gods in the right spirit, which is aspiration to virtue and love of what is right and good, is far superior to a sacrifice of grandiose oblations, fine wine and mounds of expensive olibanum. As far as we teach in the living Orphic tradition, without the right spirit, a sacrifice is a waste of time

If you have committed no misdeed, I assure you, no god is 'angry' with you. It seems to me you have a troubled mind. I would recommend taking some time before bed to calm your thoughts and tranquilize your mind. There are also some natural remedies and vitamins you can take if you have restless sleep. 

You can also, of course, make an offering to Óneiros, the deity of dreams, to ask for tranquil sleep and peaceful dreams. 

So my advice is as follows, relax, worrying yourself over a dream does you no good. Personally, I think your mind is probably just restless and worried, which is to be expected as a teenager and should not make you think that there is anything 'wrong' with you, and that is manifesting in your dreams with images that are in your mind, like those of gods. 

If you have the means and reason to have multiple shrines, and keep them maintained and furnished, then that is a blessing. If not, it is not necessary to have a multiplicity of shrines — one is perfectly sufficient. 

It it also unnecessary to place too much emphasis on food offerings. It is the custom to offer a portion of the main meal (which, historically, would only have been dinner), but for other meals, or even for the main meal, it is equivalent, as we teach, to simply recognize the divine forces that have contributed to the meal, and to take a moment to recognize that, by means of the sustenance the meal provides, you are able to aspire and work further toward the cultivation of Virtue both for the benefit of your own soul, as well as that of all with whom you have interaction of any sort.

I hope I've helped you some. Wink

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  ταιλερ ο πιστός on Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:56 pm

thanks Smile i just thought something was wrong seeing as i have the dream at least twice a fortnight for the past two years and because i'm fairly new i didn't know what sort of shrines to make so, i made 3 main ones, and two others each for the individual gods/goddesses Zeus, Athena, Poseidon, Apollo, and Demeter. and the reason for my large offerings with my meals is sometimes because i come from a very overweight family and i seem to get very big portions, i have no problem with parting with at least half of my meal if i am doing anything wrong please say Smile

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Erodius on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:37 pm

thanks  i just thought something was wrong seeing as i have the dream at least twice a fortnight for the past two years
To be frank, the more you are thinking about a particular sequence of thoughts, the more you are reinforcing it into your mind, the more likely it is to recur or to re-manifest in part or in full in another dream.

i made 3 main ones, and two others each for the individual gods/goddesses Zeus, Athena, Poseidon, Apollo, and Demeter.
For a single person, one place for worship should be more than enough. You do not need separate shrines to every divinity. Large cities would have numerous aedes/ναοί for the public, but an individual household typically had only one, and even the very privileged who could afford large, private houses would have one primary shrine for the family to worship, another shrine to protective deities at the doorway or edge of the property, and another to deities of prosperity in the larder or kitchen. But being as I assume, at 15 years old, you are not a wealthy, independent householder, you do not need numerous shrines. Really, you do not absolutely need a permanent shrine at all. Portable shrines were common in Antiquity as well, and were used especially by travelers, military men on campaigns, and average people who often lived in small, one-room apartments (insulae, in Latin) and who did not have enough space to keep a permanent shrine easily.

As a side note, many people today have, as a result of shallow history classes, a somewhat skewed idea of the conditions people lived under in the Classical world. People are shown pictures and diagrams of large Roman domi and Greek οἰκίαι with atrium gardens, courtyards, triclinia halls, marble and bronze statues, frescoed walls, bedrooms, baths and so on — and such houses certainly did exist in the Classical world, but they were more a rare exception than the norm. Only the exceedingly wealthy lived like that. Your average person would've lived in a small townhouse-type home (usually with living quarters upstairs and a shop downstairs at street level), or in insulae, the Classical equivalent of apartment complexes. For the average person, the actions of religion were carried out at simple shrine-niches set into the walls, or on wall-mounted shelves, with sacrifices made into a small, portable brazier.

and the reason for my large offerings with my meals is sometimes because i come from a very overweight family and i seem to get very big portions, i have no problem with parting with at least half of my meal if i am doing anything wrong please say
It is good to offer to the Gods — however, what I am trying to clarify is that it is pointless and without benefit to do so carelessly or automatically/mechanically. Leaving a plate of food in front of a shrine simply because it is customary to do so and because you have extra food is not of any benefit to you or to anybody. The god certainly does not partake of the offering, and certainly does not need or desire it (the idea that gods required sacrifices to 'survive' is very primitive, had long since been abandoned by educated people in High Antiquity, and has been perpetuated primarily by individuals seeking to discredit Classical religion as superstition) — while the person doing this derives no benefit either, because he/she does not consider or understand why this is done.

The outward observances of religion (called θρησκεία/thrēskeía) are certainly very, very important, of course. But they are only important because of their essences, purposes, and geneses. Thrēskeía is to piety as sacred myth is to understanding and wisdom, but knowing and doing only the physicalities of thrēskeía and the basic contents of myth is like studying the alphabet but never learning to read; the former is a pivotal aid in the latter, but without taking the next step into meaning and significance, it is a dead end.

The first is like having a toolkit and a pile of wood, and examining and admiring the tools and lumber in front of you, as they sit unused — the second is using the tools you have gained, and building yourself a house.

_________________
"O Best of Gods, blest daimon crown'd with fire . . . hear, and from punishment my soul absolve, the punishment incurr'd by pristine guilt, thro' Lethe's darkness and terrene desire: and if for long-extended years I'm doom'd in these drear realms Heav'n's exile to remain, O grant me soon the necessary means to gain that good which solitude confers on souls emerging from the bitter waves of fraudful Hyle's black, impetuous flood!"
-Iulianic Hymn to Apollon-Helios, ll. 65-106

"Having come for punishment, one must be punished. One must not pull apart the god within oneself."
-Iamblichus, Vita Pythagorica

"Truth would you teach, or save a sinking land,
All hear, none aid you, and few understand."
-Alexander Pope


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Re: Nightmares

Post  ταιλερ ο πιστός on Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:54 am

thank you Very Happy and i can assure you i have the right mindset.

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Re: Nightmares

Post  Linda on Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:37 pm

@ ταιλερ ο πιστός - you may also take a direct approach. Ask the gods for guidance of your dreams. Perhaps there's something they want to tell you about, to warn you about. Or just a message to send. People may sound angered and upset when they want to hit a point, and getting similar perceptions from the gods, we might interpret them as being angered as well.

When going to sleep the next time you can try to, when you're lying in your bed and have turned out the light, to formulate the question in your head to the gods. Something like what is it you want to tell me really. Be not afraid to ask that to Zeus for instance. You might get some kind of response in your dream, perhaps not during the very first night and perhaps not the second or the third, but eventually, being patient the reply might come.

And if it does, don't forget to give due thanks.

May the gods be with you and good luck!
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